While I make no excuses for the caller (who certainly needs his sac torn off), each and every dumbfuck who was "following orders" is a BRAINLESS FUCKING SHITSTAIN who should be fired, beaten to within an inch of his/her life, and sued into bankruptcy.
The telephone ain't rocket science, ferchrissakes.
The Milgram experiment, where you've got the authority figure standing there right over you, that would be one thing. I could see the direct authority-figure pressure there. But on the phone?
I can't believe the spin they tried to put at the end there that it wasn't the responsibility of the people who did it, they were just as much victims as the people being strip-searched, the whole "The assembly-line process very deliberately tries to take away any thought or discretion from workers" line.
Um, I've worked fast food. People still have brains under the uniform. It's not like they become a part of the Borg.
Dude. I've done the McD's thing myself, and not a soul I worked with would ever have fallen for that shit.
"Assembly line process" my ass. Hey, thanks asshole "professor", for contributing to the dehumanization of service sector employees! Thanks for reinforcing the idea that it's perfectly OK to treat them like they're brain-dead just because they're on the other side of the counter!
(I haven't been in the service industry in years, but my second job is what they call "retail research" - secret shopping - and these poor people are so used to being abused by customers that they noticeably cringe when you ask a question that they have to give a negative answer to. I feel for them.)
Anyone get the idea that a lot of the people involved were using the whole "orders" thing to sexually abuse young women?
Yes.
The Davenport, Iowa case in particular.
And that call came in collect. From what I understand, many, maybe all, state prison telephone calls are technically long distance. When I was a DJ I used to get collect phone calls from men claiming to be members of well-known bands. I'm pretty sure they came from the local penitentiary, which was inside our broadcast radius.
Submission to authority is a regular fact of living in a society, but I think that a lot of people don't really think about it when they do it.
There were several forms of the experiment. One of which was that the authority figure was outside the room and contacting the subject on intercom. There was still a frightening level of obedience, but subject lied to the authority figure about obeying after they'd gone way past their comfort level.
The caller wasn't always successful; phone records show he sometimes called as many as 10 stores before finding one where managers would take his bait.
Other than that, this is a horror story, pure and simple. Except real.
Wow, I’m almost impressed that the guy got his hoax to work so many times before getting busted (if, indeed, the police got the right person).
But c’mon, folks, really... I’ve worked in fast food and retail, and, as questionable as some of my co-workers’ intelligence was, I don’t think I worked with anyone dumb enough to fall for that shit.
I mean, if someone is accused of stealing, it IS the manager’s job to detain them, true, but they are to detain them only until the police arrive and take over. Police nowadays are so afraid of their cases getting botched that I doubt VERY much they’d ever ask a civilian to perform a search for them. And really, would you hide a purse (which the girl was originally accused of stealing) in your vagina or rectum? Not to mention the fact that no cop would ever tell someone to strip search a suspect, nor would they ask them to strike the suspect, nor would ask them to molest or rape the suspect. Those things are, ya know, against the law and have serious potential to damage their case, if there is in fact something to prosecute.
I wish I was shocked at the herd mentality here, but I’m not. I’m sad for that girl, and for anyone else who was hurt, though. I also sincerely hope that, going forward, “quick serve” restaurants train their managers better on exactly what they are supposed to do if their employees break a law, so shit like this doesn’t happen again.
But c’mon, folks, really... I’ve worked in fast food and retail, and, as questionable as some of my co-workers’ intelligence was, I don’t think I worked with anyone dumb enough to fall for that shit.
That's what makes this so horrifying. I'm certain that there are people who would have said that of Summers and Dockey, the managers who ignored what was going on in the office while the poor girl (all the poorer for her own inability to stand up for herself) was sodomized and humiliated. The people in the anthropological experiments described in the article were normal people, good upstanding citizens who'd never done a morally wrong thing in their lives, and suddenly they were willing to commit acts that they would never have contemplated on their own because an authority figure told them to.
That said, I think that every single one of the managers who followed the caller's orders (and rapists like Nix) should have been prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Saying that they are victims just as much as the people who were raped demeans the true victims. It also lets people get away with not making moral judgments about their own actions, letting them believe that following orders, no matter who issues them, is okay and they won't be punished for it. I don't want gullible people who would be willing to rape, sodomize and possibly do worse to innocent people free to bump into me on the sidewalk, or serve me fries, or rotate my fucking tires!
I've made the comparison a time or two that most people should actually be called "sheeple" because there a tendency for them to follow the herd, in almost all situations.
But you're absolutely right: the people actually committing the acts are not excused morally from their behavior. Whether or not they perceived a choice, there was indeed the opportunity for them to refuse to participate further in the humiliation and brutality inflicted upon the victims.
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(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-12 12:52 am (UTC)The telephone ain't rocket science, ferchrissakes.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-12 12:58 am (UTC)The Milgram experiment, where you've got the authority figure standing there right over you, that would be one thing. I could see the direct authority-figure pressure there. But on the phone?
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-12 01:00 am (UTC)Anyone get the idea that a lot of the people involved were using the whole "orders" thing to sexually abuse young women?
Fucking fucking hell.
Reminds me of the electroshock experiment.
What sort of person can't stand up for basic fucking decency, no matter who's "ordering" them? I mean, fuck. I...
I'm going to go read V for a while.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-12 01:01 am (UTC)I can't believe the spin they tried to put at the end there that it wasn't the responsibility of the people who did it, they were just as much victims as the people being strip-searched, the whole "The assembly-line process very deliberately tries to take away any thought or discretion from workers" line.
Um, I've worked fast food. People still have brains under the uniform. It's not like they become a part of the Borg.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-12 01:17 am (UTC)"Assembly line process" my ass. Hey, thanks asshole "professor", for contributing to the dehumanization of service sector employees! Thanks for reinforcing the idea that it's perfectly OK to treat them like they're brain-dead just because they're on the other side of the counter!
(I haven't been in the service industry in years, but my second job is what they call "retail research" - secret shopping - and these poor people are so used to being abused by customers that they noticeably cringe when you ask a question that they have to give a negative answer to. I feel for them.)
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-12 01:20 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-12 03:05 am (UTC)Yes.
The Davenport, Iowa case in particular.
And that call came in collect. From what I understand, many, maybe all, state prison telephone calls are technically long distance. When I was a DJ I used to get collect phone calls from men claiming to be members of well-known bands. I'm pretty sure they came from the local penitentiary, which was inside our broadcast radius.
Submission to authority is a regular fact of living in a society, but I think that a lot of people don't really think about it when they do it.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-12 05:59 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-12 11:29 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-12 01:40 pm (UTC)What sort of person can't stand up for basic fucking decency, no matter who's "ordering" them? I mean, fuck. I...
<<
The average person.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-12 01:40 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-12 03:08 pm (UTC)The caller wasn't always successful; phone records show he sometimes called as many as 10 stores before finding one where managers would take his bait.
Other than that, this is a horror story, pure and simple. Except real.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-12 04:02 pm (UTC)But c’mon, folks, really... I’ve worked in fast food and retail, and, as questionable as some of my co-workers’ intelligence was, I don’t think I worked with anyone dumb enough to fall for that shit.
I mean, if someone is accused of stealing, it IS the manager’s job to detain them, true, but they are to detain them only until the police arrive and take over. Police nowadays are so afraid of their cases getting botched that I doubt VERY much they’d ever ask a civilian to perform a search for them. And really, would you hide a purse (which the girl was originally accused of stealing) in your vagina or rectum? Not to mention the fact that no cop would ever tell someone to strip search a suspect, nor would they ask them to strike the suspect, nor would ask them to molest or rape the suspect. Those things are, ya know, against the law and have serious potential to damage their case, if there is in fact something to prosecute.
I wish I was shocked at the herd mentality here, but I’m not. I’m sad for that girl, and for anyone else who was hurt, though. I also sincerely hope that, going forward, “quick serve” restaurants train their managers better on exactly what they are supposed to do if their employees break a law, so shit like this doesn’t happen again.
*shakes head at the future of humanity*
(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-12 04:03 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-12 04:17 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-10-12 04:43 pm (UTC)(Google on her and Milgram if you don't know the name: she stopped.)
People suck
Date: 2005-10-12 06:37 pm (UTC)That's what makes this so horrifying. I'm certain that there are people who would have said that of Summers and Dockey, the managers who ignored what was going on in the office while the poor girl (all the poorer for her own inability to stand up for herself) was sodomized and humiliated. The people in the anthropological experiments described in the article were normal people, good upstanding citizens who'd never done a morally wrong thing in their lives, and suddenly they were willing to commit acts that they would never have contemplated on their own because an authority figure told them to.
That said, I think that every single one of the managers who followed the caller's orders (and rapists like Nix) should have been prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Saying that they are victims just as much as the people who were raped demeans the true victims. It also lets people get away with not making moral judgments about their own actions, letting them believe that following orders, no matter who issues them, is okay and they won't be punished for it. I don't want gullible people who would be willing to rape, sodomize and possibly do worse to innocent people free to bump into me on the sidewalk, or serve me fries, or rotate my fucking tires!
Re: People suck
Date: 2005-10-12 10:33 pm (UTC)But you're absolutely right: the people actually committing the acts are not excused morally from their behavior. Whether or not they perceived a choice, there was indeed the opportunity for them to refuse to participate further in the humiliation and brutality inflicted upon the victims.