That's kind of disgusting. It's Phelps and Westboro, not something important.
What happened to letting this kind of thing talk itself out so everybody would see how stupid they are? It's the reason I don't bother counter-demonstrating against the KKK. It's the fucking KKK, why throw rocks? That just engenders sympathy in middle-grounders.
Besides, as disgusting as they are, they operate within the confines of free speech as granted by the Constitution. In this day and age, it saddens me to see anybody willing to give up First Amendment rights just because groups like Westboro are around, and because people are still willing to stick cameras in Fred Phelps' face.
What I really would have liked to have seen, given the tease on the link, was people actually getting Biblical on the Westboro nuts. You know, quoting them from that OTHER half of the Bible that they seem to forget so readily. Unfortunately, just about all "true" Christians end up being colossal pussies.
The problem with letting this kind of thing talk itself out is exactly the same problem as throwing rocks. If a middle-grounder can be swayed by sympathy over rocks, they can be swayed by what they see as logic in the beliefs of the group itself The fact that there are middle grounders in cases like this seems to mean that not everyone can see how stupid people like this are.
I think I'd just want to ask them one question: What would it take for them to think that maybe, just maybe, all of this backlash against them was God and Jesus "Turn the other cheek, love thy neighbor" Christ showing their displeasure.
Well, that's giving Westboro even more credit than you're giving middle-grounders, right?
As I see it, letting shit like the KKK talk itself out is working. Hell, I've heard hardcore skinheads talk about what asswipes the KKK are. Irrational hate-thought outmodes itself, largely because it is irrational.
Now, I don't have numbers for Westboro, but I know the KKK numbers are dwindling, even given what are surely inflated roll reporting by the KKK itself. So far as I know, Westboro is less than two hundred people who are mostly related to each other in that special inbred piss-ant way that people like Westboro are related to each other. Their legal counsel/main spokeswoman is Phelps' daughter.
Also, as to middle-grounders being swayed by the "logic" of Westboro beliefs: I'm not yet cynical enough to think that, in a vacuum, undecided minds will be swayed by the rednecks yelling at a funeral procession that their miner son died because of some tenuous connection with "faggotry." The very problem is that activity such as assault (rock throwing) pressurizes that vacuum and begins to make Westboro look like a legitimate case of religious persecution.
In short, I don't want another Branch Davidian fuck-up, regardless of how unlikely it is that anyone in the Bush administration would move against Westboro.
When I posted the pic on my journal, that's the only thing I wrote below it. The tag team of the Angry Amish Warrior and Mr. 80's Dastardly Danny Doring (who's also apparently back) never failed to deliver. If Nova comes back, I might actually start watching ECW again.
Definitely wait for that before you do. So far, no good. One-hour format, completely disastrous (and outright confusing) adherence to the WWE mode of long, over-produced promos = not much EC effin' Dub action.
Eh, I guess I am that cynical. Like I said, the mere existance of middle-grounders does nothing but fuel that cynicism.
AFAIK, Westboro's membership is less than 100. I don't think that they are some collossal threat or "the next big thing" as far as hate groups go, but I do think that they are up there with the meanest. The KKK's numbers are dwindling because more modernized groups are coming along. The group has been around in one form or another for pretty much 150 years. I don't think that there's been some sort of decrease in hate, more that it's gone underground and/or changed to keep up with the times. Letting people "talk it out" hasn't really worked to actually rid the place of stupid, hateful people, at least in my opinion.
I think I just need to work on my hate group that exlusively hates hate groups. =)
I pretty much figured that. I also saw that they seem to be relying on old-school ECW wrestlers - like Sabu (who's starting to look like the Iron Shiek) and Tommy Dreamer - to put over the promotion through nostalgia rather than getting out ECW's old model of crazy wrestling action. I always said that if ECW's promo's could be brought up to the level of WWF's, there would be no contest between the two. WWF had better character development through the promo's, but ECW's action and talent far outshined WWF. Why would I watch The Rock throw 40 punches in a ten minute match when I could watch Jerry Lynn or Nova making up new and crazy things as they went along?
I'd say it's a case of being a watchdog on the one hand (higher levels of cynicism) and being mediator or quasi-apologist on the other hand (lower level of cynicism.)
Your points on the evolution of hatred are well-taken and apt. After all, I did say that neo-Nazis were calling the KKK asswipes. And without Nazis, you can't add a neo, M I RITE?!?!11
Running idiots out of your respective city when they are just around to cause shit and get publicity is an activity that is given less credit than it deserves.
It happened with off-duty military versus violent protesters in Ottawa a few years back, and worked wonders apparently.
That's kind of my point. There shouldn't be violent protesting. It's almost a contradiction in terms. Protest, or revolt. Don't try to get the benefits of each without the drawbacks of either.
Why give up the moral high ground to Fred Phelps, of all people?
Wish in vain, friend, for they do "the Lord's work."
And, as is my wont, having had a few more hours of contemplation, nothing would please me more than Bush's ATF going after the Westboro "compound." Two birds with one stone. Look at how much flak Reno got for it, imagine how many of the "Right" people would be pissed if Bush tread on Phelps.
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(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-10 07:35 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-10 07:41 pm (UTC)Huh.
Date: 2006-07-10 07:53 pm (UTC)What happened to letting this kind of thing talk itself out so everybody would see how stupid they are? It's the reason I don't bother counter-demonstrating against the KKK. It's the fucking KKK, why throw rocks? That just engenders sympathy in middle-grounders.
Besides, as disgusting as they are, they operate within the confines of free speech as granted by the Constitution. In this day and age, it saddens me to see anybody willing to give up First Amendment rights just because groups like Westboro are around, and because people are still willing to stick cameras in Fred Phelps' face.
What I really would have liked to have seen, given the tease on the link, was people actually getting Biblical on the Westboro nuts. You know, quoting them from that OTHER half of the Bible that they seem to forget so readily. Unfortunately, just about all "true" Christians end up being colossal pussies.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-10 07:53 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-10 07:58 pm (UTC)Re: Huh.
Date: 2006-07-10 08:04 pm (UTC)I think I'd just want to ask them one question: What would it take for them to think that maybe, just maybe, all of this backlash against them was God and Jesus "Turn the other cheek, love thy neighbor" Christ showing their displeasure.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-10 08:04 pm (UTC)Re: Huh.
Date: 2006-07-10 08:11 pm (UTC)As I see it, letting shit like the KKK talk itself out is working. Hell, I've heard hardcore skinheads talk about what asswipes the KKK are. Irrational hate-thought outmodes itself, largely because it is irrational.
Now, I don't have numbers for Westboro, but I know the KKK numbers are dwindling, even given what are surely inflated roll reporting by the KKK itself. So far as I know, Westboro is less than two hundred people who are mostly related to each other in that special inbred piss-ant way that people like Westboro are related to each other. Their legal counsel/main spokeswoman is Phelps' daughter.
Also, as to middle-grounders being swayed by the "logic" of Westboro beliefs: I'm not yet cynical enough to think that, in a vacuum, undecided minds will be swayed by the rednecks yelling at a funeral procession that their miner son died because of some tenuous connection with "faggotry." The very problem is that activity such as assault (rock throwing) pressurizes that vacuum and begins to make Westboro look like a legitimate case of religious persecution.
In short, I don't want another Branch Davidian fuck-up, regardless of how unlikely it is that anyone in the Bush administration would move against Westboro.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-10 08:21 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-10 08:33 pm (UTC)Re: Huh.
Date: 2006-07-10 08:51 pm (UTC)AFAIK, Westboro's membership is less than 100. I don't think that they are some collossal threat or "the next big thing" as far as hate groups go, but I do think that they are up there with the meanest. The KKK's numbers are dwindling because more modernized groups are coming along. The group has been around in one form or another for pretty much 150 years. I don't think that there's been some sort of decrease in hate, more that it's gone underground and/or changed to keep up with the times. Letting people "talk it out" hasn't really worked to actually rid the place of stupid, hateful people, at least in my opinion.
I think I just need to work on my hate group that exlusively hates hate groups. =)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-10 08:57 pm (UTC)Re: Huh.
Date: 2006-07-10 09:28 pm (UTC)I'd say it's a case of being a watchdog on the one hand (higher levels of cynicism) and being mediator or quasi-apologist on the other hand (lower level of cynicism.)
Your points on the evolution of hatred are well-taken and apt. After all, I did say that neo-Nazis were calling the KKK asswipes. And without Nazis, you can't add a neo, M I RITE?!?!11
Re: Huh.
Date: 2006-07-10 09:31 pm (UTC)It happened with off-duty military versus violent protesters in Ottawa a few years back, and worked wonders apparently.
Re: Huh.
Date: 2006-07-10 09:37 pm (UTC)Why give up the moral high ground to Fred Phelps, of all people?
(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-11 12:51 am (UTC)-- Steve wishes them no harm, but definitely wishes that they fully understand the consequences of their hateful and small-minded "creed".
(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-11 01:17 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-07-11 01:19 am (UTC)And, as is my wont, having had a few more hours of contemplation, nothing would please me more than Bush's ATF going after the Westboro "compound." Two birds with one stone. Look at how much flak Reno got for it, imagine how many of the "Right" people would be pissed if Bush tread on Phelps.
Re: Huh.
Date: 2006-07-11 02:33 am (UTC)Now THAT's the kind of protest I can get behind. Ain't NOBODY can mock like a drag queen can.
Re: Huh.
Date: 2006-07-11 02:35 am (UTC)