Somehow, I don't think the pothole filled at random corner X is going to end up being a touchstone for memory--or, for that matter, end up being distinguished from the two other potholes at corner X, and the rut down the street, and the pothole just around the corner on Y, which was filled in later, or possibly it was earlier, but at any rate doesn't have human remains (at least not 9/11 ones).
I agree that it's not the worst thing in the world. But that's because their unretrieved remains being used as roadfill is not the worst thing I could imagine, not because it's necessarily in any way a good thing.
i dunno, i mean, what can they do about it now? i somehow feel that suing isn't gonna make the situation any better... bah, but i guess, this is america...
If I ever find myself attached to a given city or building, say I build a dam somewhere or something, I'd like the idea of my ashes being mixed with the mortar.
A formal burial place might help. So might an apology, an acknowledgement, or a confession.
It strikes me that the families being purportedly told "Whoops, we didn't bother to check so we ground up your loved one like garbage and spread them *somewhere*" need to sue to get any of the three is the actual problem, and not the suing itself.
I mean, how else does one go about seeking redress in these circumstances? Grab a shotgun and head down to the company offices, hoping that you'll hit someone who was responsible? That's repellent.
There's also the option of throwing up one's hands and saying "Damn, well, doesn't matter, they're just a corpse anyway, why would I want to have them remembered, or their bodies treated respectfully?" But if their death was important enough to suggest that never forgetting was a good idea in the first place and that the disposal of their bodies was something that could result in memoriam, then that's hardly something that can be demanded of them.
I know what you are saying. They should be given a burial place. I don't understand why this happened in the first place. It seems ridiculous that such an important event, with so many people affected by this, would have this sort of a story associated with it.
I'm just kinda sick of how Americans sue over every little thing. It's not going to ease their pain by getting money out of it. Yes, they did something wrong, they should be punished in some way for it. But I don't know, I just don't see how someone suing benefits them emotionally. It won't bring their loved ones back or take back the mistake that was made.
I feel like the an apology should be given reguardless of suing. I mean, if you sue someone, and you get an apology out of it, wtf, was that really sincere? Fuck that, they aren't sorry if they have to get sued in order to give an apology.
Sometimes, people sue to get media attention. And yeah, that's pretty repellant, but me? I'd have probably picked a better example to use than this in order to be able to say "Man, people will sue for any old thing these days, won't they?"
haha, that's not my point though. yes, people will sue for any old thing. but i'm not saying this is insignificant, not in the least. i just don't see how it helps anyone get what they really want.
Yeah, that's why I don't think it's the worst thing in the world. It sucks for the people who knew them, though. Especially cause it's not like the victims wrote in their wills, "I would like to become part of NY city."
Both, I guess. It would be pretty difficult to somehow figure out which pot holes and ruts have remains, though they should have some sort of log saying where the went that day... But then to try to extract them, and then to figure out where the burial place should be... I was more thinking they are suing because they are pissed and distraught, which is understandable. I don't understand why this is happening NOW, it's been years, shouldn't they have been upset they didn't have a place to mourn their dead previously? Would this have been an issue if nothing was ever said about remains being in potholes?
Would it be an issue if nobody ever *found out* that your grandmother's body had been sold to a sausage factory run by a necrophiliac, and all you'd buried was a box full of rocks?
Would it matter if you found this out, say, 6 years after she died instead of 6 days?
sure, i'd be upset, but, does that change things? if i NEVER visited my grandma's grave, it would be stupid for me to be upset about it 6 years later. sure, i'd be pissed about it. but i wouldn't be as worried about the grave site as i would be about why this was able to happen in the first place.
in other words, yes, i'd want an apology. i wouldn't be trying to get the remains back for a grave site. if she was made into sausage, what the hell else could i do about it?
To build off theweaselking's example, would it matter if your grandmother's apartment building burnt down, and you were told the body was irretrivable--and then you found out that it *was* retrievable, it was just easier for the people who told you this to throw it out as garbage?
You wouldn't want the funeral home that sold your grandmother's body to the cannibal necrophiliac to *stop selling bodies to cannibal necrophiliacs*? Even if your grandmother's body was already long gone?
dude, if you want me to shut up, i can shut up. but i was giving my opinion on it. i don't REALLY want to make a big deal out of this. yes, it's pretty crappy of someone to just be lazy and throw it out. i was under the impression that the remains that could be retrieved were, and the rest was thrown out, ashes that you couldn't possibly distinguish from dirt. I mean, yes, this is PRETTY FUCKED UP:
"In his first few months on the job, Beck said Taylor's mechanical sifters found 2,000 bones per day. He recalled finding "bones, fingers, skulls, feet and hands" as well as a man's chest and "the full body of a man dressed in a suit." The remains were catalogued and turned over to the city, he said."
That shouldn't happen. I'm making more general statements here. I nowhere said that what they did wasn't wrong. My point is, what can you do about it now that it's happened? And how will suing help?
Of course. but i thought the point torrain was trying to make was "A formal burial place might help. So might an apology, an acknowledgement, or a confession." I don't remember a mention of getting them to never do it again. But that's a given, really. Why the heck would you want someone to do something like that again? But it should be dealt with by the city or state. I don't see how the victim's families benefit from it. THEIR loved one is already gone, and their body is gone. They can't do shit about it.
Oh, sorry. Thought you were saying it was dumb to sue for money over this; glad we've got that cleared up.
I understand now that you're saying that trying to get the remains of people you care about buried as decently as possible won't work in this case; and that anyway the people who are trying to do it don't *really* care about having the remains of their family buried as decently as possible, they're just trying to be difficult.
> It would be pretty difficult to somehow figure out which pot holes > and ruts have remains, though they should have some sort of log > saying where the went that day... But then to try to extract them, > and then to figure out where the burial place should be...
Oh, totally. People who do a sloppy job of checking for the bodies of your loved ones and then grind them up as garbage really shouldn't have to try and make reparation for the situation if it's difficult for them to do so.
While I may be too unsentimental or unsympathetic but I cannot help but think "so what?". It's not like they're using rib-bones to create pretty desins in the pavement ... more like fine debris. Yes, maybe it's insensitive but what good will they get from sueing?
I have a hard time understanding attachment to remains or why people would want to keep the ashes of their formerly loved ones. Just let them go ... they're just a pile of ash now, or nutrients in the ground, nothing left of who they were before.
Everything we use contains atoms that were previously fuzzy critters, pretty plants and yes, humans. I personally find it quite interesting that my body might share atoms with a long dead dinosaur or asteroid. I'm just an organised versions of a bunch of parts who, in the end, will to back to being disorganised and organised again.
> My point is, what can you do about it now that it's happened?
Have as much of the bodies as you can find buried properly.
> And how will suing help?
By making the people who were responsible for having the aforementioned "as much of the bodies as you can find" treated like garbage be the ones who do the work to bury them properly.
I understand your not getting why people want to keep the remains. But if you can't understand--not get, not empathize with, not feel the same way, just understand--why someone would want to treat the remains of their family with respect, I suspect it's beyond me to outline why in a sufficiently expressive manner.
As to why they'd sue: they want a proper burial place, which is understandably important to those who care about such things.
As has been observed elsewhere, repeatedly, they're not suing for money.
I know you are giving me a hard time, but I don't completely understand your sarcasm. I'm not trying to be a bitch, and I'm feeling like this is getting rather heated. I really don't want that.
Yes, I did say it was dumb to sue over money about this. It's not going to bring the dead back, it's not going to fix the situation.
They should be made to fix the situation, like you said, go find the bodies they can and bury. But I don't see how money reparations would help, which is what I have been saying. The workers were doing what they were told to do. Yes, it was wrong, but sometimes it's hard in a situation where you need money to live and the people giving you money are telling you to do something immoral. I think the people really responsible, higher ups that were telling the workers to just keep working, the money they would have to invest in hiring more people to fix this situation would take care of the whole money thing. I don't think victim's families should be paid because of this ordeal.
whether you bury them in a respectful way or not, the end of it is, they are dirt in the ground. i can understand why someone would want to keep ashes, they are attached, they aren't ready to let go, etc.. but i agree, they weren't really DISRESPECTING them by turning them into artwork or some other crazy thing, you know, like what we do to animals for taxidermy purposes. There are worse things done to human corpses than this.
it doesn't make what they did right. but like i've been saying, i don't see how anything meaningful can be done about it now. in the end, they are dead, you can't bring them back.
Ok, but, they are ground up now.. You can't do much for the remains already affected.. I think it would be a better course of action to maybe try to process possible remains from Fresh Kills now. Like the guy said, if you reprocessed the stuff in that dump, you'd probably find a lot more.
Actually, you said it was dumb to sue, and just assumed it was over money. It isn't. There's no indication that the families will get paid. They're suing the city (not the company workers) to get a formal burial place. Not a cheque.
Then--after you had it pointed out that they weren't suing for money--you kept posting about how the effort to get the formal burial place was dumb, and it would be difficult to get one, and you didn't see why people cared, and anyway they probably didn't care they were just being spiteful.
I'm not saying that suing for money would bring anyone back, and haven't argued with you on that point. I'm just reiterating your points about how useless and difficult you think it would be to get bodies buried respectfully to make sure I understand them.
Holy shit. I really don't care. I started out saying one thing, and that was, it's not the worst thing in the world.
I responded to everything you said because I felt I should, you took the time to write it, I should take the time to respond. I'm giving you my opinion. If you don't like it, fine. I really don't care. But I've just been telling you how I felt about it from the begining. I was not trying to start shit here. This is ridiculous. I'm glad you feel so strongly about something. But I don't care.
My opinion remains, there is nothing you can do for the people who have died, there is nothing in this world that will bring them back. So ALL of this seems entirely pointless. If you don't like my opinion, fine. But don't bash me for it. I'm not sitting over here calling you stupid for feeling the way you do, I'm glad you have empathy and compassion and all that other good stuff. But I don't. So damn, stop instigating, why bring up all the other stuff? You brought something up, I responded, then you bash on me for responding the way I did.
For values of always that comprises "until the temporary repair is replaced with a real one". Around here it wouldn't last as long as a regular grave, let alone always.
For one thing, the problem is that the government fucking *lied*. It said all the large remains identifiable as such were being filtered out to be buried properly, and they were negligent in their duties, simply because it was costing too much.
For that matter, I don't understand why the WTC debris has to be ground up to be used as roadfill in the first place. I wouldn't expect demolition debris to be in particularly short supply from non-human-containing sources.
So why not just leave everything at a particular section of a landfill, convert it to a park (as landfills usually end up) and set a memorial on top?
Um, not really. When the temporary repairs break down, where does it go? It turns to dirt. Everything decomposes. It all goes to the same place. But I kinda finished with this post a while ago.. So I'm not going to argue about it..
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 01:10 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 02:46 am (UTC)I agree that it's not the worst thing in the world. But that's because their unretrieved remains being used as roadfill is not the worst thing I could imagine, not because it's necessarily in any way a good thing.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 02:49 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 05:37 am (UTC)If I ever find myself attached to a given city or building, say I build a dam somewhere or something, I'd like the idea of my ashes being mixed with the mortar.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 10:47 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 11:17 am (UTC)It strikes me that the families being purportedly told "Whoops, we didn't bother to check so we ground up your loved one like garbage and spread them *somewhere*" need to sue to get any of the three is the actual problem, and not the suing itself.
I mean, how else does one go about seeking redress in these circumstances? Grab a shotgun and head down to the company offices, hoping that you'll hit someone who was responsible? That's repellent.
There's also the option of throwing up one's hands and saying "Damn, well, doesn't matter, they're just a corpse anyway, why would I want to have them remembered, or their bodies treated respectfully?" But if their death was important enough to suggest that never forgetting was a good idea in the first place and that the disposal of their bodies was something that could result in memoriam, then that's hardly something that can be demanded of them.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 01:10 pm (UTC)I'm just kinda sick of how Americans sue over every little thing. It's not going to ease their pain by getting money out of it. Yes, they did something wrong, they should be punished in some way for it. But I don't know, I just don't see how someone suing benefits them emotionally. It won't bring their loved ones back or take back the mistake that was made.
I feel like the an apology should be given reguardless of suing. I mean, if you sue someone, and you get an apology out of it, wtf, was that really sincere? Fuck that, they aren't sorry if they have to get sued in order to give an apology.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 01:37 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 01:38 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 01:40 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 02:02 pm (UTC)You mean, you think the suing won't work and so won't help them get the formal burial place that they're suing for?
Or you think that they don't really want the formal burial place, and they're suing just to be spiteful?
(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 02:02 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 02:03 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 02:07 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 02:17 pm (UTC)Would it matter if you found this out, say, 6 years after she died instead of 6 days?
(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 02:21 pm (UTC)in other words, yes, i'd want an apology. i wouldn't be trying to get the remains back for a grave site. if she was made into sausage, what the hell else could i do about it?
(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 02:21 pm (UTC)and that's pretty gross. i would want the name of the sausage factory, i'd want no more of that sausage...
(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 02:22 pm (UTC)The six years/six days comment stands.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 02:26 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 02:26 pm (UTC)"In his first few months on the job, Beck said Taylor's mechanical sifters found 2,000 bones per day. He recalled finding "bones, fingers, skulls, feet and hands" as well as a man's chest and "the full body of a man dressed in a suit." The remains were catalogued and turned over to the city, he said."
That shouldn't happen. I'm making more general statements here. I nowhere said that what they did wasn't wrong. My point is, what can you do about it now that it's happened? And how will suing help?
(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 02:29 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 02:31 pm (UTC)Oh, sorry. Thought you were saying it was dumb to sue for money over this; glad we've got that cleared up.
I understand now that you're saying that trying to get the remains of people you care about buried as decently as possible won't work in this case; and that anyway the people who are trying to do it don't *really* care about having the remains of their family buried as decently as possible, they're just trying to be difficult.
> It would be pretty difficult to somehow figure out which pot holes
> and ruts have remains, though they should have some sort of log
> saying where the went that day... But then to try to extract them,
> and then to figure out where the burial place should be...
Oh, totally. People who do a sloppy job of checking for the bodies of your loved ones and then grind them up as garbage really shouldn't have to try and make reparation for the situation if it's difficult for them to do so.
Now do I understand you?
(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 02:32 pm (UTC)I have a hard time understanding attachment to remains or why people would want to keep the ashes of their formerly loved ones. Just let them go ... they're just a pile of ash now, or nutrients in the ground, nothing left of who they were before.
Everything we use contains atoms that were previously fuzzy critters, pretty plants and yes, humans. I personally find it quite interesting that my body might share atoms with a long dead dinosaur or asteroid. I'm just an organised versions of a bunch of parts who, in the end, will to back to being disorganised and organised again.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 02:33 pm (UTC)Have as much of the bodies as you can find buried properly.
> And how will suing help?
By making the people who were responsible for having the aforementioned "as much of the bodies as you can find" treated like garbage be the ones who do the work to bury them properly.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 02:37 pm (UTC)As to why they'd sue: they want a proper burial place, which is understandably important to those who care about such things.
As has been observed elsewhere, repeatedly, they're not suing for money.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 02:38 pm (UTC)Yes, I did say it was dumb to sue over money about this. It's not going to bring the dead back, it's not going to fix the situation.
They should be made to fix the situation, like you said, go find the bodies they can and bury. But I don't see how money reparations would help, which is what I have been saying. The workers were doing what they were told to do. Yes, it was wrong, but sometimes it's hard in a situation where you need money to live and the people giving you money are telling you to do something immoral. I think the people really responsible, higher ups that were telling the workers to just keep working, the money they would have to invest in hiring more people to fix this situation would take care of the whole money thing. I don't think victim's families should be paid because of this ordeal.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 02:42 pm (UTC)it doesn't make what they did right. but like i've been saying, i don't see how anything meaningful can be done about it now. in the end, they are dead, you can't bring them back.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 02:46 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 02:50 pm (UTC)Then--after you had it pointed out that they weren't suing for money--you kept posting about how the effort to get the formal burial place was dumb, and it would be difficult to get one, and you didn't see why people cared, and anyway they probably didn't care they were just being spiteful.
I'm not saying that suing for money would bring anyone back, and haven't argued with you on that point. I'm just reiterating your points about how useless and difficult you think it would be to get bodies buried respectfully to make sure I understand them.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 02:55 pm (UTC)I responded to everything you said because I felt I should, you took the time to write it, I should take the time to respond. I'm giving you my opinion. If you don't like it, fine. I really don't care. But I've just been telling you how I felt about it from the begining. I was not trying to start shit here. This is ridiculous. I'm glad you feel so strongly about something. But I don't care.
My opinion remains, there is nothing you can do for the people who have died, there is nothing in this world that will bring them back. So ALL of this seems entirely pointless. If you don't like my opinion, fine. But don't bash me for it. I'm not sitting over here calling you stupid for feeling the way you do, I'm glad you have empathy and compassion and all that other good stuff. But I don't. So damn, stop instigating, why bring up all the other stuff? You brought something up, I responded, then you bash on me for responding the way I did.
Ugh. Rah, out.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 02:59 pm (UTC)I pointed out where you missed something, and then tried to summarize your POV to make sure I had it right.
Did my summary misrepresent you?
(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-26 03:56 pm (UTC)...
(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-27 03:28 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-29 05:57 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-29 06:32 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-29 06:52 pm (UTC)For that matter, I don't understand why the WTC debris has to be ground up to be used as roadfill in the first place. I wouldn't expect demolition debris to be in particularly short supply from non-human-containing sources.
So why not just leave everything at a particular section of a landfill, convert it to a park (as landfills usually end up) and set a memorial on top?
(no subject)
Date: 2007-03-29 07:40 pm (UTC)