(no subject)

[theweaselking]

So there's a Japanese Catholic hospital.

They don't like abortion, predictably, but they have a relatively sensible take on it for Catholics: rather than just working to ban it, they try to actually address the causes of abortion and came up with a novel solution they hoped would reduce both the number of people who want abortions *and* the number of babies who die from being abandoned.

Their solution: "The Stork's Cradle", a place where unwanted newborns could be dropped off anonymously - allowing parents to have their child adopted, and hopefully reducing the number of abandoned babies left in dangerous places, or where they would not be found in time.

It opened last Thursday.

On the first day of operation, they also had their first drop-off: A toddler, approximately three years old, who was only able to tell the police that he'd come there with "daddy", that he'd taken the train with his daddy to the city and that he really didn't know where home was, or what his daddy's name is.

Comments

[catlin.livejournal.com]

Not everyone has the option to use BC, for one. And not everyone ESPECIALLY Catholics and other very right religions don't get tought about BC, other than that it is evil. On top of that, yes, Adoption is the ideal, but again, not always an option. Stateside anyway you have to have both parents permission to give the baby up for adoption. It is possible if a guy (or girl) wants to totally ruin your life, for them to refuse to sign the child over. Then add in the fairly rare high school babies no one knows even exists due to loose clothing and hyper modesty. Ignorant and confused, and frightened, only really understanding that having a kid will ruin her life, those kids tend to end up in the dumpster. Or how about the woman who is running from an abuser, and knows she can't take care of the kid, but knows he won't give up beating the kids?

There are always reasons. That someone outside the parent's head does not understand them does not negate those very very volitile reasons to that parent.

[anivair.livejournal.com]

You're right. I wonder if the simple solution might be to teach people facts about sex and birth control and not spooky myths? And I wonder if a better idea might be to provide free birth control to the masses? gasp?

Also, free clinics also provide free condoms and almost all cities have one. I'd love to see who these people who don't have access to birth control are. i suspect the root cause is ignorance, not unavailabiilty.

[chaosrah.livejournal.com]

EXACTLY.

[goblinpaladin.livejournal.com]

Don't forget that birth control isn't 100% effective. catlin also raised several other valuable points which you are blissfully ignoring.

[anivair.livejournal.com]

I'm not ignoring them. I'm counting them as lesser problems. Sex = problems. You'll never get the problems out of the equation. but those simple suggestions above will solve the majority. Why not solve the bulk of the issues eaasily and cheaply right away and see what's left over after?

[catlin.livejournal.com]

Or not being of legal age to access that free birth control in your state. Not being able to go to the free clinic without parental permission, when your parents are fundie flakes, cuts you off til you are of age without actually teaching you that sex is anything but the great way to spend an hour and raise your fragile self esteem.

[anivair.livejournal.com]

Another good reason for mandatory sex ed that is factual and scientific, not religious and stupid.

[torrain.livejournal.com]

Well, yes, it's a good idea.

But it doesn't currently exist, and catlin was explaining why people might *currently* not use birth control or put their babies up for adoption. It's not that some of the problems she addressed can't be worked on or fixed. It's that they are problems, and there are reasons (or causes) why not everyone uses BC, and not everyone who gets pregnant carries it to term and then gives it up.

She's (I thought) just trying to offer a little perspective to someone who says they don't understand why people don't behave in a perfectly sensible and reasonable way.

[anivair.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I get her point. And she's right from that point of view. It just bothers me that the point of view is so backwards in the first place. As far as I'm concerned when your backwards point of view starts hurting other people, then someone needs to alter your point of view rapidly.

[torrain.livejournal.com]

Hmh. How about when your backwards point of view starts hurting you? 'cause there are people who won't use birth control even though it makes their own lives harder, and the question of when it's thier POV versus one they've been taught... agh.

(Also, as far as I can tell in the case of the hospital, the Catholic point of view appears to be *helping* other people.)

But yeah. If you're going to alter a POV, it helps to know where it's coming from.

[anivair.livejournal.com]

I'm all in favor of letting people hurt themselves. But it's sticky where parents are concerned because your kids don't know any better, or don't have the ability to stand up. Or in this case, would not ever have existed in the first place.

[chaosrah.livejournal.com]

Well, that's my point, if they don't want people getting abortions, whynot push the idea or spread the knowledge of birth control? So many places in the world could benefit from this.. Even just condoms... Guh..

I think it's wrong that people don't understand the consequences of their actions. If people are going to be having sex, they need to understand that the consequence could be bringing a new child into the world. Giving people the option to just give up their kid, which might in turn seriously fuck up the kid, that's just not taking responsibility. Likewise, letting people have abortions is just another way out of that responsibility. I feel that abandoning a child is worse than simply not having one, but that of course is my own personal feeling on the matter.

Personally, I'm ok with abortion, because it's up to the parents to decide if they could give their kid a good life, and if they don't think they can do that, then why bring another miserable kid into the world. That seems irresponsible to me. But as I said, that's up to the parents.

[goblinpaladin.livejournal.com]

The headline on theweaselking's post was "So there's a Japanese Catholic hospital." That Catholic part means they don't want people using condoms, they believe they are morally wrong. The truth of such claims is a trifle irrelevant: while people believe in such truths, it is better to address the problems. The alternative is to decry their religion, tell them to just 'get with it,' and not do anything to prevent folk abandoning children.

It's not abandoning the child! It's giving the child to a service which will take care of it. The entire intention is to prevent abandonment. People've had sex, accidentally fallen pregnant. The difference between lack or failure of birth control is frankly irrelevant at this point. The issue is abortion, and plenty of people refuse to get abortions for moral/health/whocares reasons. At this juncture, leaving the child for adoption is not only the rational thing to do, it's the right thing to do if one cannot care for the child.

You are fine with abortion, and that's great. But not everyone is. This service offers an alternative.

[chaosrah.livejournal.com]

The parents are still abandoning their child. Yes, someone is stepping up and caring for the child. But they were still abandoned by someone. Not abandoned in the sense that they are being left on the street to die. But in the sense that someone decided to abandon their responsibility to the child as parent.

I understand that Catholics don't like birth control. And they don't like abortion. They think it's immoral. But don't they also think having sex before marriage is immoral? Why aren't "parents" reprimanded more harshly for having sex before marriage then? Because obviously if the Catholics were being moral, like the Church says they should be, then they wouldn't have this issue in the first place...

And yes, I agree, it is the rational and right thing to do, to put the child up for adoption if you cannot care for the child after it is born. I never said that that wasn't the right and rational thing to do..

[goblinpaladin.livejournal.com]

'Abandon' implies 'leaving without concern,' which clearly isn't the case in any situation where the child is being left in care. According to your argument, any adoption process is abandonment.

Catholics DO think having sex before marriage is wrong. Super wrong. They ARE reprimanded harshly for having sex before marriage. The thing is that people DO fail, and do immoral things. Some Catholics do use birth control. Some have abortions. Some have sex before marriage. What we're discussing here is what happens when the latter is the problem.

Or, y'know, when married couples are just having sex (perfectly permissible) and can't take care of children. Or when the birth control fails. Or in the case of rape, or incest or a thousand other concerns.

You seemed to be saying it was irresponsible (i.e, not right and not rational) to have a child when you cannot take care of it. My point is that it's not always as simple as abortion: []Yes or []No.

[chaosrah.livejournal.com]

I guess I wasn't very clear. I definitely understand that there are circumstances where such things can't be avoided. As you said, in the case of rape, birth control fails, etc. I guess I'm just angry that people don't take more responsibility for their actions than they currently do. I'm talking about the people in which these special circumstances do not apply to. And I know it happens a lot more than many would like to admit.

You can't really be reprimanded, however, if you drop off anon. I understand that's the point, people would just stick their kids on the streets if they were to be reprimanded, and of course, people don't like to be punished. And, indeed, this happens all the time, to avoid the shame. I got it, I understand. I still don't think it's right. Blah.

And yes, I know it's not as simple as abortion. While I am pro-choice, I know I would have a very difficult time of deciding whether or not to abort my own baby if the situation ever arrose. That's why I'll do my best to not have to make that decision.

[goblinpaladin.livejournal.com]

That's fine. I'm sure the Church would agree with that position. But railing against foolishness doesn't help the unwilling victims of that foolishness. Like I said elsewhere, treat the symptoms and then move on to treating the problem.

You can't be publically humiliated or be in danger of your job, life, whatever, if you drop them off anonymously, no. But if you confide to your priest as a devout Catholic, I'm sure he would proscribe some kind of suitable penance. Besides, the guilt and torment those poor mothers would go through is probably more than enough punishment. If there is a problem of abandonment (which there is), then this is the correct solution to the problem. A safe, healthy, anonymous way of ensuring your unwanted babies are kept safe. Like I said above: even if only one person uses it, that's one less baby left in a cardboard box somewhere. That is to be commended.

Ja. Pro choice is making sure there are choices. This service grants another one.

[chaosrah.livejournal.com]

True.

I never said this service was a bad thing, mind you. And you are right, you do have to do something about the "symptoms"...

Indeed, the mothers' probably do go through quite a bit of torment.. Except for the occasional nutjob that feels no remorse. (I have heard of mothers that do not feel anything for ridding themselves of their child, I find this appalling. A friend of mind had to answer to social services about one of these such "mothers"..)

[goblinpaladin.livejournal.com]

Even so, better to take the child away from a mother than cares not if said child lives or dies. Better than THAT is to have an anonymous option for said parent to give the child up for adoption.

[chaosrah.livejournal.com]

I'm not disagreeing.

As I said before, I'm just against this feeling that people can do what they want and to hell with the consequences. (Yes, I know this does not apply to everyone, but it does apply to some, and that bugs me.)

Damn humans.

[chaosrah.livejournal.com]

And yes. Humans fail. To err is human, eh?

[jsbowden.livejournal.com]

I hate to rain on your parade here, but having grown up in the Catholic church here in the US, I can tell you that Rome is mostly ignored on the issue of birth control. I also wouldn't categorize mainstream US Catholics as far right. Most tend to be Democrats, with reservations on the whole abortion thing, but you don't see them shooting doctors or bombing clinics. The bishops in this country do not promote extremism, and during one very memorable mass, it was stated very emphatically that Catholicism is not fundamentalism. It was rather amusing to watch, as at that point, I was only going to make mom happy.

[entropymagnet.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. Although I'm personally not a religious person at all, I did grow up in the Catholic church and it's crazy how people love to rail against the Catholics for being strict.

At my old church, most of the Catholics were as liberal as could be. While most of us seem to have a general respect for the backwards-thinking Pope [Jay Pee Squared, not B16], I've NEVER heard any plain ol' American Catholic look to the Vatican for advice. However, when I moved to NC and went to church one morning with a friend in high school, it was suddenly all PHEER TEH WRATHZ OF JEZUZ!

[torrain.livejournal.com]

...from personal experience, with the whole caveat that anecdote is not data, it's not that strict in Canada, either.

[catlin.livejournal.com]

It is a pity that not all churches are not the same. One of my closer friends here is from one of the more "devout families. Her daughter is being sent to catholic school by her parents. The commentary was based on what she is being tought, and what her mother was tought also at the catholic schools she was sent to. That BC was a crime against God and did not work anyway.