I'm a linux geek at heart (and at home) but my macbook was by far the best laptop purchase I've ever made. I've owned Toshiba and Thinkpad business class laptops, and they'll have to pry this Macbook out of my cold dead hands.
And having said that, their latest offering hardly merited a big flashy announcement. A few relatively minor hardware upgrades isn't that exciting, and I'll be waiting at least a year before even considering something new ;)
Based on equivalent price. For $2000, I can get a MacBook with a slower processor, less RAM, less software, and fewer repair options, than a $1000 HP machine.
(And the Mac has a completely inadequate warranty, at that point.)
Hey, they're good machines, if you're willing to pay through the nose for them and never try to do something the designers didn't expect.
My objection to Macs comes in two flavours:
#1: Only one goddamn button on the fucking touchpad of the fucking MacBook - which is a short way of saying that Apple's designers hate you and want you to suffer because the idea that something might need to work in a way that they, personally, do not prefer is simply anathema to them.
#2: Holy crap the price is *insane* compared to what you actually get.
And if you don't mind #1 and you've got money to burn on #2, go nuts.
I'm assuming that $2000 price tag is if you build it up on their website. I looked at the current crop, went with the 2.4Ghz processor and stopped. If I want a bigger drive, I'll pick one up somewhere else. Same with the RAM, it's something I can upgrade myself for a lot less.
And at that point, you have a damned fast laptop with 250G+ SATA drive and 4G of RAM, flawless wireless, and very portable. And make no mistake, the wireless on a macbook kicks the living hell out of anything HP/Dell/Lenovo put out. I pick up a LOT more AP's on my current macbook (about 2 years old) than you would on just about anything else out there. It even beats out my old wardriving d-link card, which was damned good.
All of that aside, they *are* pricey. I won't deny that. The price factor does seem to pay off though. The hardware is solid, and takes a lot of abuse. My laptop is almost always on (like, 24/7/365). I've killed two hard drives on it due to that abuse. Fortunately I'm a responsible geek who backs up regularly, and the Mac dealer has replaced the drive *next day* in both cases.
Add in OSX, and it's money well spent in my book :)
I've largely adjusted to the mouse the same way I do on any other laptop. I don't use it. That's what external mice are for. I actually prefer the Thinkpad nipples if I'm stuck using a laptop, but the touchpad isn't a deal breaker for me anymore.
$20 for a little laptop mouse with a clickable scroll wheel and 2 buttons is achievable ;)
And if you have less than $1000 and want to buy new with a decent protection options, you might as well not say Apple. I'm not against the Mac per se, but it's like listening to condo dwellers talk about how renting's for suckers. In fact, Mac's pricing scheme strikes me as stuck in the bubble economy mindset.
The $2000 price tag is based on the MacBook Pro, stock off the Apple Store website.
And at that point, you have a damned fast laptop with 250G+ SATA drive
5400 RPM. It's a *SLOW* drive.
and 4G of RAM,
No, 2G. 4G costs an extra $150 - which is down from just a few weeks ago, when it was 1GB stock and *$500* to up to 4. It's still more than the $25 it takes to up anyone else's RAM.
flawless wireless, [...] And make no mistake, the wireless on a macbook kicks the living hell out of anything HP/Dell/Lenovo put out. I pick up a LOT more AP's on my current macbook (about 2 years old) than you would on just about anything else out there.
I have to take issue with the "flawless wireless" - after the 10.5 update, the fucking things keep DOSing Linksys access points, because for some stupid reason the MacBook Pro doesn't speak WPA properly any more.
(As for picking up more APs: That's a software thing.)
The hardware is solid, and takes a lot of abuse
You've lost two hard drives in two years, and you consider that *reliable*? Even at 24/7 usage, that's absurd.
(And you neglected to mention that you either paid $350 extra to get the warranty or paid for parts and labour on the new drives in both cases.)
I don't deny that Apple makes decent hardware. Their 2.4GHz processors are the same as anyone else's, their RAM is the same as anyone else's, their HDDs are the same as anyone else's (although you say they're unreliable, that's not been my experience), their monitors are the same as anyone else's. Their prices are just tripled on all of those.
(Also: Fucking Mac power supplies *are unsafe*. The wires break and they burn because they short instead of disconnecting.)
You can get pretty reasonably priced refurbished ones right off the Apple site, and they have the same warranty.
Don't get me wrong. Apple *is* pricier up front. In my own experience so far though, they're cheaper to own in the long run. The hardware is rock solid, and you don't spend hours fixing the damn thing.
It also helps that the bundled software on a Mac isn't all useless shite you have to uninstall to get any performance back. And if you *do* want to uninstall sofware, it doesn't leave behind a bunch of crap you have to break open a registry editor for an hour to clean up.
The downside, obviously, is that the initial entry price is a barrier. Not everyone can afford to make the initial investment to reap the rewards later.
I don't always want to have to pull out a mouse if I'm using it on a plane, or on my couch, or if I'm carrying it around to demo something. The touchpad isn't my primary interface, but there is *no* reason to cripple it like that.
Heh, you wouldn't catch me using anything *but* Symantec - but I can say that because I use the Symantec corporate client, not that bloated retail product everyone else gets stuck with and can't configure properly.
Windows is generally a safe assumption. Not everyone can be cool like us *grin*
They've put two buttons on, or they've put *no* buttons on?
("no buttons" is incredibly, unspeakably worse. But it *would* fit with Apple's design methodology. Why why why why WHY can I not filter iTunes by any of the fields other than genre, artist, or album? Why? Stupid!)
Uninstalling the bundled Symantec AV is actually pretty easy and thorough these days, and pulling crap out of the registry takes *seconds* and no special knowledge.
My main complaint is the default setup of XP with the "performance" options and things like MSN Explorer installed - but that's because it's an OS with defaults set more than 5 years ago, back when they were really stupid. And Apple does the same thing, with Quicktime's TSRs, iPod support, Bonjour, and the like, so it's kind of a wash in the comparison of the two.
And yet, when I bought my macbook pro, the only manufacturer that had anything close to the specs of what I was looking at was Dell. Their offering was $1000 *more* than the Apple version, and had less RAM stock.
Ah, the Pro. That's why the higher price. I use my laptop because it's portable. The straight Macbook is portable in my view. I wanted something light and small. The Macbook Pro doesn't meet that qualification.
Hadn't looked at the drive speeds - mine is a 150G SATA 7200 RPM. The prices Apple charges to upgrade online are insane. Totally give ya that. It's a rip off. Which is why I don't do it through them.
Haven't seen the Linksys DoS thing, got a link? I haven't had any WPA/WPA2 problems at all.
I consider the loss of the drives the price I pay for leaving it on constantly and throwing my backpack around while it's in it. On previous laptops, that's resulted in fried motherboards, broken drives, and various other bits that are harder to fix.
I didn't pay extra for the warranty, and didn't pay labour or parts. The drive was covered by default.
Dell's prices are always hyperinflated on high-end machines.
I'm curious about what you bought, and when, and what else you looked a - because right now, six months ago, six months before that, six months before that, and six months before THAT, the markup on Macs was such that you really are paying much more than for a non-Apple-branded machine of equivalent specs.
(Before two years ago, I really wasn't paying attention)
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(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-17 02:06 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-17 02:07 pm (UTC)I'm a linux geek at heart (and at home) but my macbook was by far the best laptop purchase I've ever made. I've owned Toshiba and Thinkpad business class laptops, and they'll have to pry this Macbook out of my cold dead hands.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-17 02:08 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-17 02:12 pm (UTC)(And the Mac has a completely inadequate warranty, at that point.)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-17 02:15 pm (UTC)My objection to Macs comes in two flavours:
#1: Only one goddamn button on the fucking touchpad of the fucking MacBook - which is a short way of saying that Apple's designers hate you and want you to suffer because the idea that something might need to work in a way that they, personally, do not prefer is simply anathema to them.
#2: Holy crap the price is *insane* compared to what you actually get.
And if you don't mind #1 and you've got money to burn on #2, go nuts.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-17 02:25 pm (UTC)And at that point, you have a damned fast laptop with 250G+ SATA drive and 4G of RAM, flawless wireless, and very portable. And make no mistake, the wireless on a macbook kicks the living hell out of anything HP/Dell/Lenovo put out. I pick up a LOT more AP's on my current macbook (about 2 years old) than you would on just about anything else out there. It even beats out my old wardriving d-link card, which was damned good.
All of that aside, they *are* pricey. I won't deny that. The price factor does seem to pay off though. The hardware is solid, and takes a lot of abuse. My laptop is almost always on (like, 24/7/365). I've killed two hard drives on it due to that abuse. Fortunately I'm a responsible geek who backs up regularly, and the Mac dealer has replaced the drive *next day* in both cases.
Add in OSX, and it's money well spent in my book :)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-17 02:27 pm (UTC)$20 for a little laptop mouse with a clickable scroll wheel and 2 buttons is achievable ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-17 02:28 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-17 02:33 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-17 02:37 pm (UTC)And at that point, you have a damned fast laptop with 250G+ SATA drive
5400 RPM. It's a *SLOW* drive.
and 4G of RAM,
No, 2G. 4G costs an extra $150 - which is down from just a few weeks ago, when it was 1GB stock and *$500* to up to 4. It's still more than the $25 it takes to up anyone else's RAM.
flawless wireless, [...] And make no mistake, the wireless on a macbook kicks the living hell out of anything HP/Dell/Lenovo put out. I pick up a LOT more AP's on my current macbook (about 2 years old) than you would on just about anything else out there.
I have to take issue with the "flawless wireless" - after the 10.5 update, the fucking things keep DOSing Linksys access points, because for some stupid reason the MacBook Pro doesn't speak WPA properly any more.
(As for picking up more APs: That's a software thing.)
The hardware is solid, and takes a lot of abuse
You've lost two hard drives in two years, and you consider that *reliable*? Even at 24/7 usage, that's absurd.
(And you neglected to mention that you either paid $350 extra to get the warranty or paid for parts and labour on the new drives in both cases.)
I don't deny that Apple makes decent hardware. Their 2.4GHz processors are the same as anyone else's, their RAM is the same as anyone else's, their HDDs are the same as anyone else's (although you say they're unreliable, that's not been my experience), their monitors are the same as anyone else's. Their prices are just tripled on all of those.
(Also: Fucking Mac power supplies *are unsafe*. The wires break and they burn because they short instead of disconnecting.)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-17 02:38 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-17 02:40 pm (UTC)#2: Constant AV is a trivial performance hit as long as you're not dumb enough to use Symantec products
#3: You're assuming Windows.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-17 02:41 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-17 02:41 pm (UTC)Don't get me wrong. Apple *is* pricier up front. In my own experience so far though, they're cheaper to own in the long run. The hardware is rock solid, and you don't spend hours fixing the damn thing.
It also helps that the bundled software on a Mac isn't all useless shite you have to uninstall to get any performance back. And if you *do* want to uninstall sofware, it doesn't leave behind a bunch of crap you have to break open a registry editor for an hour to clean up.
The downside, obviously, is that the initial entry price is a barrier. Not everyone can afford to make the initial investment to reap the rewards later.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-17 02:41 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-17 02:42 pm (UTC)Windows is generally a safe assumption. Not everyone can be cool like us *grin*
(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-17 02:43 pm (UTC)("no buttons" is incredibly, unspeakably worse. But it *would* fit with Apple's design methodology. Why why why why WHY can I not filter iTunes by any of the fields other than genre, artist, or album? Why? Stupid!)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-17 02:44 pm (UTC)And no, Symantec is the problem, not the solution. Doesn't matter what product you're talking about - Symantec is the enemy.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-17 02:46 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-17 02:47 pm (UTC)My main complaint is the default setup of XP with the "performance" options and things like MSN Explorer installed - but that's because it's an OS with defaults set more than 5 years ago, back when they were really stupid. And Apple does the same thing, with Quicktime's TSRs, iPod support, Bonjour, and the like, so it's kind of a wash in the comparison of the two.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-17 02:48 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-17 02:48 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-17 02:50 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-17 02:50 pm (UTC)Hadn't looked at the drive speeds - mine is a 150G SATA 7200 RPM. The prices Apple charges to upgrade online are insane. Totally give ya that. It's a rip off. Which is why I don't do it through them.
Haven't seen the Linksys DoS thing, got a link? I haven't had any WPA/WPA2 problems at all.
I consider the loss of the drives the price I pay for leaving it on constantly and throwing my backpack around while it's in it. On previous laptops, that's resulted in fried motherboards, broken drives, and various other bits that are harder to fix.
I didn't pay extra for the warranty, and didn't pay labour or parts. The drive was covered by default.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-17 02:51 pm (UTC)I'm curious about what you bought, and when, and what else you looked a - because right now, six months ago, six months before that, six months before that, and six months before THAT, the markup on Macs was such that you really are paying much more than for a non-Apple-branded machine of equivalent specs.
(Before two years ago, I really wasn't paying attention)