I was sympathetic toward the poor chaplain till he said "we won't be indoctrinating anyone" and then a missive later says that he's sad that Seb will be "missing out on the message of hope of the resurrection."
I find it hard to be upset with the writer of the permission slip, when the replies from the parent are so rude and obnoxious. If you don't want your child to see a play about Easter, say you don't want your child to go! There, easy! Teachers have enough to deal with already.
Well said - It is good to see someone not automatically hating on Christians on the internet. Some of us aren't that bad, and it can get a bit depressing seeing wave after wave of this sort of thing.
First: The guy is not a teacher. He's not even, as he falsely claimed on the permission slip, a "chaplain". He's a volunteer, there to tell lies to other people's children.
Second: No, actually, simply ostracising your own child from his peers is *not* the correct solution to psychotic bigoted assholes attempting to recruit your child and his classmates into their deranged cult.
If it makes you feel any better, I don't feel that you, as a Christian, are inherently any more (or less) insane than the members of any other religion.
You see, I'd be with you, if he hadn't prechecked the "Yes, I give permission" box on the parent's behalf. Right there, you lose your right to a civil response. That's not a decision you make for me, and "Oh, it was a printing error"? Yeah. Right.
That's kind of like when my kid gets to kindergarten and is given lovely coloring sheets about the Baby Jesus being born in a manger as a classroom activity in a public school. If I don't want her exposed to that, what do I do? Not send her to kindergarten?
Teachers would have less to deal with if they remembered religion doesn't belong in the public school system, period.
It's not a zero sum game. You can be both bothered by the obnoxiousness of the parent and find the indoctrination attempt from your school to be offensive.
It can get a bit depressing seeing wave after wave of intolerant Christians who look at you like you're some kind of freak because you don't because you don't believe in their personal religion. Putting up with people on a daily basis who spout out all kinds of things with no basis other than 'God sez so'...ESPECIALLY when these people don't even know what it's the book they claim to be the infallible word of the divine.
As others have pointed out, not a teacher, just some volunteer.
And the "just say so" argument only goes so far. Case in point..I go to get my automobile tax a couple of years back. Alabama had a tag at that time that read "In God We Trust". I'm in line, and having friendly chat with the older gentleman working the counter, and after I pay, he hands me one of the tags that have that religious tagline on them. I shake my head and say that I want just the standard tag, thanks. His mood instantly shifted and I was suddenly being eyed suspiciously. He muttered something about assuming because "everyone" wanted the God tag, and closed down. No more friendly for you, godless heathen.
So yeah, just speaking up and identifying as different is as good as asking for it.
On the 'printing error' side of things, I've worked in the copy business for 10 years, and you would be surprised what slips past the proofing process.
No, I don't believe it was actually the case here, but stranger shit has happened (like the time I saw an election pamphlet touting the candidate's intelligence, but the word intelligence was spelled wrong.)
If there's an issue of why volunteering parents are now sending children on (as good as) obligatory events which appear to be intended for the purposes of proselytising, the email should be a much more civil one to the headteacher.
What's with the random face photoshopped onto Jesus' face? That is utter immaturity and, to be quite honest, it's not terribly funny. In fact it makes me almost entirely unsympathetic to the parent's plight.
You see, I'd be with you, if he hadn't prechecked the "Yes, I give permission" box on the parent's behalf. Right there, you lose your right to a civil response. That's not a decision you make for me, and "Oh, it was a printing error"? Yeah. Right.
Perhaps I was naive. Printing errors are a common problem in schools. Still, I don't think that was a good enough excuse to lower the tone in the way they did. There are more civil ways of writing "I think you're full of shit". The way the responses were written focussed more on mocking the religion than they did on explaining the concerns in regards to the trip.
Teachers would have less to deal with if they remembered religion doesn't belong in the public school system, period.
As a trained RE teacher and atheist in the UK, I cannot wholly agree with you. In fact, I think that if religion were provided with its own slot in the timetable there would be less excuse for sneaking it in elsewhere. Also with RE lessons expected to focus on inclusion, diversity and tolerance it would help Christians recognise alternative perspectives and allow for better informed communities.
In the UK we teach 6 major religions as well as another major local religion if there's one prominent in the area. Also thanks to the work of the BHA, secular perspectives are being included more and more. Also, later years include critical thinking when dealing with philosophy and ethics.
Of course, this trip is entirely different and if they are upset it would make sense to send a strongly worded (but civil!) email to the headteacher. Especially considering the legal standpoint within the US (where I presume this is taking place).
He muttered something about assuming because "everyone" wanted the God tag, and closed down. No more friendly for you, godless heathen.
So you punched him? No, you probably kept your cool and, at most, reminded him of the importance of personal freedom.
There's no point responding to the call of "godless heathen" with "Jesus freak". It just becomes a name-calling game and, in these emails, it actually ends up looking like the volunteer (calling himself chaplain) is the more civil of the two.
It just becomes a name-calling game and, in these emails, it actually ends up looking like the volunteer (calling himself chaplain) is the more civil of the two.
Really? Because I didn't read that at all. I saw the 'chaplain' making more and more a fool out of himself, and getting called out for it. Finally, because he had no defense, all he could was mutter the proverbial 'shut up' while sulking.
I don't believe for a moment that it was a printing error. I think it's the same kind of assumption that needs to be questioned, pointed out, and called to task, which is exactly what happened. Sometimes the only way to deal with the ridiculous is to be just as ridiculous in return.
Well it is always a good idea to investigate things. ;)
It is full of asshole responses to various notes people have left (and due to professional reasons, I found that p2p logo posting the best -- that feeling is oh so familiar when one of my jobs was to do both sysadmin stuff and manual writing/graphic layout to one company) to the guy. And most of them are something you really need to take a with a Dead Sea-sized grain of salt.
I'm tired of the "but some of us are really nice! don't be so mean to us!" crap. Yes, some Christians are really nice. I know a whole bunch that I count as friends and family, and they're not only nice, the SHUT THE FUCK UP about their "niceness" and Christianity and don't have whiny little fits if someone mocks the funditards. (Actually, they tend to join in the mocking.)
You see, in the UK, you have six major religions plus to discuss. Here, we have one: Evangelic Christian or YOU'RE GOING TO HELL. Diversity training encompasses the fact that some people go to afternoon services, rather than morning.
To imagine the level of discourse you're describing coming from teachers locally is lovely, however, a more pragmatic solution would be to have them say nothing on the topic at all.
It just becomes a name-calling game and, in these emails, it actually ends up looking like the volunteer (calling himself chaplain) is the more civil of the two.
Well yes, but he believes that if he isn't meticulously civil even to the souless non-persons who don't believe in Jesus' magical egg laying powers then a giant sky fairy will torture him forever in a pit of flame.
Please note that I do recognise the idiocy of the 'chaplain' too...
"You are welcome to attend if you have any concerns."
Said the BNP about their white supremacy meeting in the town hall.....
If you attend every single event you don't think you are going to agree with, you may give a very dodgy impression of what sort of person you are.
"it would be a pity for Seb to miss out on the important message of hope that the story of the resurrection gives"
Sorry what was that? Please don't endanger your son's soul to an eternity of fiery torment? Is that really what you just said? This is your reason why they should attend the event where there is no indoctrination involved?
"Learning the teachings of the Bible is not just about religion. It teaches a set of ethics that are sadly not taught by parents nowadays."
And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It's better to enter the Kingdom of God with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell
"There's an old saying that life without religion is life without beauty."
Apparently not a terribly well known saying...
"I will pray for you." There's also something quite dodgy when the phrase above can be substituted comfortably with "I would really like to punch you in the face right now."
Revelation (singular) 19:15. "And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp two edged sword; that with it he may strike the nations. And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God the Almighty. "
To be fair, the guy is a troll. Look at the rest of the site, he's very, very much a troll. In what I've read so far 2/3 seemed to deserve it (including this one in those two).
I think the parent is more playing to the audience of his website, and trying to make a point to them than he is trying to convince the volunteer, he's wanting to make the point to the volunteer, make fun of him, and invite him to leave himself open for more mockery.
The parent/website owner is a troll. But I do think he has a point on this one.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 03:35 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 03:36 pm (UTC)HEY THAT IS INDOCTRINATION.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 03:46 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 03:57 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 03:58 pm (UTC)And the guy was not a teacher. He was a chaplain.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 03:59 pm (UTC)Thank you.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 04:05 pm (UTC)Second: No, actually, simply ostracising your own child from his peers is *not* the correct solution to psychotic bigoted assholes attempting to recruit your child and his classmates into their deranged cult.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 04:07 pm (UTC)(Edited to fix Lost Footnote Error)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 04:07 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 04:14 pm (UTC)That's kind of like when my kid gets to kindergarten and is given lovely coloring sheets about the Baby Jesus being born in a manger as a classroom activity in a public school. If I don't want her exposed to that, what do I do? Not send her to kindergarten?
Teachers would have less to deal with if they remembered religion doesn't belong in the public school system, period.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 04:19 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 04:21 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 04:30 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 04:41 pm (UTC)Now that can be depressing..or enraging.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 04:44 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 04:46 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 04:46 pm (UTC)And the "just say so" argument only goes so far. Case in point..I go to get my automobile tax a couple of years back. Alabama had a tag at that time that read "In God We Trust". I'm in line, and having friendly chat with the older gentleman working the counter, and after I pay, he hands me one of the tags that have that religious tagline on them. I shake my head and say that I want just the standard tag, thanks. His mood instantly shifted and I was suddenly being eyed suspiciously. He muttered something about assuming because "everyone" wanted the God tag, and closed down. No more friendly for you, godless heathen.
So yeah, just speaking up and identifying as different is as good as asking for it.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 04:48 pm (UTC)No, I don't believe it was actually the case here, but stranger shit has happened (like the time I saw an election pamphlet touting the candidate's intelligence, but the word intelligence was spelled wrong.)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 05:02 pm (UTC)What's with the random face photoshopped onto Jesus' face? That is utter immaturity and, to be quite honest, it's not terribly funny. In fact it makes me almost entirely unsympathetic to the parent's plight.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 05:18 pm (UTC)Perhaps I was naive. Printing errors are a common problem in schools. Still, I don't think that was a good enough excuse to lower the tone in the way they did. There are more civil ways of writing "I think you're full of shit". The way the responses were written focussed more on mocking the religion than they did on explaining the concerns in regards to the trip.
Teachers would have less to deal with if they remembered religion doesn't belong in the public school system, period.
As a trained RE teacher and atheist in the UK, I cannot wholly agree with you. In fact, I think that if religion were provided with its own slot in the timetable there would be less excuse for sneaking it in elsewhere. Also with RE lessons expected to focus on inclusion, diversity and tolerance it would help Christians recognise alternative perspectives and allow for better informed communities.
In the UK we teach 6 major religions as well as another major local religion if there's one prominent in the area. Also thanks to the work of the BHA, secular perspectives are being included more and more. Also, later years include critical thinking when dealing with philosophy and ethics.
Of course, this trip is entirely different and if they are upset it would make sense to send a strongly worded (but civil!) email to the headteacher. Especially considering the legal standpoint within the US (where I presume this is taking place).
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 05:22 pm (UTC)Do you seriously expect anything but solid mockery of everything? Seriously? What are the chances that it happened at all? Like, for real?
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 05:23 pm (UTC)So you punched him? No, you probably kept your cool and, at most, reminded him of the importance of personal freedom.
There's no point responding to the call of "godless heathen" with "Jesus freak". It just becomes a name-calling game and, in these emails, it actually ends up looking like the volunteer (calling himself chaplain) is the more civil of the two.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 05:24 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 05:26 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 05:29 pm (UTC)Really? Because I didn't read that at all. I saw the 'chaplain' making more and more a fool out of himself, and getting called out for it. Finally, because he had no defense, all he could was mutter the proverbial 'shut up' while sulking.
I don't believe for a moment that it was a printing error. I think it's the same kind of assumption that needs to be questioned, pointed out, and called to task, which is exactly what happened. Sometimes the only way to deal with the ridiculous is to be just as ridiculous in return.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 05:31 pm (UTC)It is full of asshole responses to various notes people have left (and due to professional reasons, I found that p2p logo posting the best -- that feeling is oh so familiar when one of my jobs was to do both sysadmin stuff and manual writing/graphic layout to one company) to the guy. And most of them are something you really need to take a with a Dead Sea-sized grain of salt.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 05:53 pm (UTC)I'm tired of the "but some of us are really nice! don't be so mean to us!" crap. Yes, some Christians are really nice. I know a whole bunch that I count as friends and family, and they're not only nice, the SHUT THE FUCK UP about their "niceness" and Christianity and don't have whiny little fits if someone mocks the funditards. (Actually, they tend to join in the mocking.)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 06:06 pm (UTC)To imagine the level of discourse you're describing coming from teachers locally is lovely, however, a more pragmatic solution would be to have them say nothing on the topic at all.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 06:19 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 06:34 pm (UTC)That wasn't my read at all.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 06:36 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 07:03 pm (UTC)Keep up the good work, sir.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 07:46 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 08:41 pm (UTC)And that's the entire problem with the Bible.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 09:34 pm (UTC)Well yes, but he believes that if he isn't meticulously civil even to the souless non-persons who don't believe in Jesus' magical egg laying powers then a giant sky fairy will torture him forever in a pit of flame.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 09:45 pm (UTC)Fixed that for you.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 09:47 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 09:56 pm (UTC)Australian schools do not have "Chaplains" (although they used to) and preaching in school is illegal.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 11:13 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-23 11:25 pm (UTC)"You are welcome to attend if you have any concerns."
Said the BNP about their white supremacy meeting in the town hall.....
If you attend every single event you don't think you are going to agree with, you may give a very dodgy impression of what sort of person you are.
"it would be a pity for Seb to miss out on the important message of hope that the story of the resurrection gives"
Sorry what was that? Please don't endanger your son's soul to an eternity of fiery torment? Is that really what you just said? This is your reason why they should attend the event where there is no indoctrination involved?
"Learning the teachings of the Bible is not just about religion. It teaches a set of ethics that are sadly not taught by parents nowadays."
And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It's better to enter the Kingdom of God with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell
"There's an old saying that life without religion is life without beauty."
Apparently not a terribly well known saying...
"I will pray for you."
There's also something quite dodgy when the phrase above can be substituted comfortably with "I would really like to punch you in the face right now."
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-24 12:29 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-24 01:28 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-24 02:26 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-24 02:27 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-24 02:35 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-24 02:41 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-24 02:43 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-24 02:47 am (UTC)The parent/website owner is a troll. But I do think he has a point on this one.