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Two unknown gunmen in full Arabic dress began firing on civilians in central Basra, wounding several, including a traffic police officer. There were no fatalities, the official said.

The two gunmen fled the scene but were captured and taken in for questioning, admitting they were British marines carrying out a "special security task," the official said. They were taken to an Iraqi police detention center. A British armored vehicle escorted by a tank was crashed into the center to rescue them after thr British army commanders were informed that the Iraqis had arrested their troops.


EDIT: Two more articles from the Guardian.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1574398,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1574381,00.html

...

Date: 2005-09-20 04:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] unnamed525.livejournal.com
I'm confused.

Re: ...

Date: 2005-09-20 04:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theweaselking.livejournal.com
Two guys dressed as Iraqis shot up a crowd of civilians.

Those two guys are British Marines, who claim they were ordered to dress like Iraqis and shoot the crowd of civilians. They were arrested by the Iraqi police.

The Iraqi police told the British Army that they had captured two British Marines, dressed as Iraqis, firing on a crowd of civilians.

The British army sent an APC and a tank to drive through the wall of the jail and rescue their marines.

Re: ...

Date: 2005-09-20 04:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] unnamed525.livejournal.com
I understand the what of what happened ... I just completely fail to understand any rational why.

Re: ...

Date: 2005-09-20 05:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theweaselking.livejournal.com
Yeah, I mean, what incentive could the British Army *possibly* have to fake atrocities by their enemies that would justify using whatever level of force they deemed appropriate AND tend to make that level of intrusion seem more palatable to the locals?

Re: ...

Date: 2005-09-20 05:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] unnamed525.livejournal.com
It's hypothetically rational; it's rational for some purpose. It is not categorically rational; it's not rational in and of itself.
God.
I hate Kant.

Re: ...

Date: 2005-09-20 07:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] torrain.livejournal.com
Can you give an example of an action which is rational in and of itself, rather than rational because it serves some purpose?

Re: ...

Date: 2005-09-20 07:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] unnamed525.livejournal.com
I'd say that an action that is categorically rational would be an action the purpose of which is also rational, since all actions are purposeful, by definition (at least if we're using "action" in an ethical sense). Seeking health would be a categorically rational action.

Re: ...

Date: 2005-09-20 07:52 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I'm confused; isn't that still an action that is rational for some purpose rather than in and of itself, since you're letting the purpose define whether or not the action is rational?

Re: ...

Date: 2005-09-20 07:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] unnamed525.livejournal.com
It's probably a useless distinction, since the notion of taking some action for the purpose of taking that action ... seems silly.

Re: ...

Date: 2005-09-20 07:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] unnamed525.livejournal.com
The distinction still applies.
A hypothetically rational action would be one that is done to achieve some purpose, the purpose being itself irrational. The action itself is still rational, in the hypothetical context of the given purpose, but the purpose is one the actor ought not seek (or at least it isn't the case that she ought to seek it).

In other words, James Bond is fictional

Date: 2005-09-20 05:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] larabeaton.livejournal.com
If that was their intention then they did it in a mind-numbingly stupid way. They should not have admitted that they were British marines when arrested, and their commanders should have used a more discreet method of extracting them than crashing a frigging APC into the jail.

Re: In other words, James Bond is fictional

Date: 2005-09-20 05:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theweaselking.livejournal.com
I didn't say it made sense. This probably isn't even the full story.

Re: ...

Date: 2005-09-20 05:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dolston.livejournal.com
And I mean, what incentive could Iraqis have for arresting a couple of British soldiers and claim they were firing into a crowd to prevoke the British military into an assault thus turning the locals further against them.

Re: ...

Date: 2005-09-20 05:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theweaselking.livejournal.com
Also a possibility.

All around? A clusterfuck.

Re: ...

Date: 2005-09-20 05:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dolston.livejournal.com
It is a cluster fuck. Likely scenario is someone(s) in the crowd had weapons and were preparing to fire. The commandos, being sneaky like, shot with no one knowing who they were. Targets and maybe Iraqi police not knowing who the British were fired back. Gun battle ensues. People are shot and bad guys withdraw.

Brits wait around get talked to by Iraqi Police who they were shooting at and who were shooting at them. Iraqis, being rightfully displeased that they were just in a firefight with their allies take them in for questioning.

British become displeased with the Iraqi police force arresting their military. British are not patient and send tanks into the jail since the Iraqis told them where they were.

Iraqis not being stupid, have reinforce their jail cause the local populace probably want to hang the British. And given this is Iraq local populace isn't stupid enough to walk around without some kind of weapons.

British show up and break down jail walls. Iraqi police going WTF!? open up to defend themselves while the people outside, working on the theory, on Brit SOldier is as good as any other and, besides, these are hear and have a tank we can burn burn the tank.

Hilarity ensues. Ad likely continues today.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-09-20 04:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dolston.livejournal.com
Read this last night. The situation is very odd, especially given the type of resistance the British met when they assault the jail. Something isn't adding up but probably won't know what happened for a couple years down the road due to operational security.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-09-20 08:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] leighdb.livejournal.com
Is it sad that the only thing I'm thinking, other than "Buh?", is that I'm glad none of the soldiers involved were American?

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