I have seen the future.

Hell, I need go no further than the last festival.

Someday, I'm going to play the Goddess of the Clue-By-Four at one of these things.

From:

the last festival.

Like I said. Back to high school.

(You can SOMETIMES tell the difference between a bunch of high-schoolers and a bunch of neopagans by the total lack of jocks, and, indeed, the lack of any evidence of physical activity by any member of the group, ever.)

(Why yes, I AM a jerk. Go take a look at "Starhawk" and "Silver Ravenwolf" and their biggest fans, and tell me I'm wrong, here.)

From:

Mention not $ilver Ravenwolf in my presence, as the sight of a reference librarian frothing at the mouth tends to alarm the students. (Seriously, you can often tell the maturity level of the pagan you're dealing with by their reaction to the mere mention of this woman's name. I'll admit to briefly owning a copy of To Ride a Silver Broomstick, but it was consigned to the "Dispose of posthaste" box the moment I realized it was rewarmed, previously published content, and erroneously cribbed at that.)

I actually have gotten a lot of use out of some of Starhawk's material, but I have the same issue with her that I have with anyone who mixes up religion and politics. Or religion and science, for that matter.

(However, I can't slam high school heathens too much. Most reputable pagan teachers will not accept any student under the age of 18 period full stop.)

The only other thing I really have to say on this is that, as is often the case with these kinds of things, the most visible examples are not the best representatives.

From:

I wasn't saying they were high-school age. I was saying it's impossible to tell them apart from the high-schoolers on a behavioural level.

From:

Which becomes more and more ironic, the more I learn about the core practices and beliefs of this stuff.

I'm starting to understand why some people I know call them "playgans".

From:

(Upon rereading, it apears I may have seemed far more harsh than I really meant. Rest assured that I'm a well-meaning and greatly amused jerk, with no hard feelings intended by his jerkhood)

From:

Oh, it's nothing I haven't thought myself from time to time, particularly the year that a bunch of people playing "Freak the mundanes" were directly responsible for a small pack of Christians showing up to protest the festival.

The park ranger was Not Amused™. Neither were the festival organizers, who have worked very hard to cultivate a good relationship with that particular park and ranger.

However, we wander rather far from the point, which is that for whatever reason, this subculture (as opposed to this religion, and I do think that distinction ought to be drawn) seems to attract an awful lot of Nice Guys. When you add in that a great number of them seem to assume that polyamory is the default relationship orientation in this setting (to be fair, not a completely off-base assumption, though I know very few people who actually make it work) AND that Mr. Darcy does not care for a lot of social contact OR for festivals, and you end up with yours truly having to rebuff a certain amount of attention.

Whew. That was longer than I intended.

From:

How's the old t-shirt go? "I'm a bi/poly/switch/[something]. I just won't sleep with YOU."

But yeah. Gamers are the same way, especially given the very, very low social and olfactory requirements of getting in on the subculture.

I remember the local pagans. They threw good parties sometimes - and there were always a couple of guys who were Just Scandalised that I was far more willing to ignore a casual hand on my arm from a woman my age than I was to tolerate a guy more than twice my age inflicting a deathgrip while staring deep into my eyes and suggesting I go home with him. Of COURSE turning you down means I'm a homophobe who doesn't belong here because I'm harshing the vibes, man. Sure. Totally.

From:

It totally blows my mind how little able people are to respect boundaries sometimes.

Which, as we know, is a hallmark of the Nice Guy (or Girl, for that matter).

From:

jerril

Eeegnrhgh @#!$%&@!. *twitch*

Sorry. That kind of intense asshattery from individuals is what gives entire groups really bad reputations.

Thankfully all the gamers I've run into with really bad Nice Guy problems have been passive aggressive enough that they wouldn't even bother to violate peoples boundaries, they just skip to the wounded pride stage/accusations stage, which makes it more obvious to others where the offense actually lies.

From:

That kind of intense asshattery from individuals is what gives entire groups really bad reputations.

Don't I know it.

I'm really starting to understand why coven-based Craft tends to lie low these days. Having volunteered for large-ish public festivals for several years, I've had opportunity to witness all kinds of bad behavior from people whose kids are old enough to know better.

(So why do I keep doing it? Because these folks are really a small percentage of the whole, and on a purely personal, selfish level, there's no experience quite like initiatory ecstatic ritual. Though mileages vary, obviously.)

From:

Ah, the radical idea that companionship is not owed and a significant other's presence in your life is not tribute they have been delegated by the Central Scrutinizer to give you for your mastery over basical superficial social conventions, but rather a reflection of their desires to spend time with you... yes, *their* desires, dammit... look, you do know other people have feelings, right?

Right?

I'm going to go shudder in horror until the bad memories of someone who just decided I was dating them because I was actually willing to hang around and talk fade away again.

(And then there was the follow-up. Nothing hikes the creep factor into the stratosphere like
"You said we were just going to the movie as friends. You invited her along too, and I *know* she's just your friend."
"That's because it's what I needed to say so that you'd go out with me."

(And they thought of it as a date. When they knew I didn't. What kind of short-circuit do you have to have going when you *know* the other person isn't interested at all, only hung out with you because you promised it wasn't a date, and you still think it's a date?

(Bleah.)

(Nice is cheap. Kind, now... kind *matters*.)

From:

The ones that are even worse than that are the passive-aggressive Nice Guys that constantly bitch about the fact that the object of their affections won't date them yet have never actually asked said woman out.

From:

Hey, is it MY fault that the unrequited love of my life lives on the wrong end of the continent?

And that moose are hairy and hard on the machinery?

If that's wrong, then I don't want to be right!

From:

This doesn't apply to you because you have not only informed this person of your interest, you have openly devised plans for securing the object of your affections.

From:

"Asking" is for people without the necessary hardware to simply stop the planet and catch dates in a net as they go by.

From:

You could always go for the "Bring me the head of Dylan Alexander" plan. Then, your only concern would be the danger of being arrested for murder in Texas.

Granted, that concern is not negligible.

From:

It's Texas. The "he needed a killin'" defense is still good, and I'm sure I can convince

flemco and

takhisis to find me six witnesses to testify to that fact.

From:

I think I'd honestly prefer that.

Because if they never ask you out, they probably don't talk to you much either, and you don't have to deal with their spoiled whiny "world owes me an SO" bitching.

From:

Possibly. However, if you are friends with said guy, then you do have to listen to their bitching. Also, with the demonstrated passive-aggressiveness, it's hard to tell whether or not they're talking about YOU.

From:

The second point is well-founded, though my idealistic view of humanity prevented me from conceiving of someone A whining to someone B about how someone C wouldn't date them when someone C is going unnamed in the whine because it's secretly someone B. That's a scary level of special.

So is the first point. I think I've just passed the point where people talk to me about that sort of angst. I must be getting harsh.

*sigh* I remember once using the "I like you better as a friend" line. I still occasionally wonder if there was something else I could have said, or if it really was the kindest way to leave unsaid "because it means I don't have to be romantically involved with you and I really don't want to be."

Pah. I think I was fifteen at the time. Possibly sixteen.

Foolish youth...

From:

I recall being quite amused at that one.

If it's the one I'm thinking of.

(I've had to give the "You're lucky her boyfriend thinks this is funny as hell" speech a few times in my life. Those are always fun.)

From:

If it is, it's the one you were amused about after the fact, since I didn't know you[1] when it happened. IIRC, I told you about it after

jagash's birthday party.

(If it's not that one, refresh my memory? I could use some amusement.)
---
[1] Except possibly to make threatening noises about a crowbar--I'd have to do some math to be sure.

From:

I was thinking Julian.

Which was making me laugh EXTRA-hard, because as I recall he being extra-clingy and refusing to let go of your arm while I was sitting there laughing.

From:

*L* Oh god, yeah.

(And you say I'm not a soft touch?)

I'm sure that if you took away the desperate need for a clue-by-four, the compulsive lying, and the guilt trips, he might have actually been dateable. (By some poor individual who hadn't already found the centre of the universe, of course.)

From:

fearmeforiampink

I'm suddenly reminded of when some of my housemates had gone out for a drink at a local alternative club, and one of them got into an interesting conversation with a guy at the bar. Because the housemate in question isn't the most perceptive of fellows in certain areas, he hadn't noticed the fact that said guy was coming on to him.

I believe he was eventually rescued by another housemate intervening and pretending to be his jealous lover. Mostly cause that was the funniest way to get him out of it, rather than the easiest.

From:

jerril

Been there, done that. And then he tried to pick a fight with a good male friend of mine because my friend was trying to steal "his" "girlfriend". The idiot in question was VERY lucky I was off sick that day as I would probably have joined in kicking his ass for that kind of savagery.

Certain contributors to this conversation may actually remember the incident :D

From:

Indeed, I do recall. I've still got the scar, in fact.

From:

jerril

I did not remember that you'd gotten a scar from that. I do recall the offender missed a few days after that.

Ah, highschool. :P

From:

desdenova.livejournal.com

"You said we were just going to the movie as friends. You invited her along too, and I *know* she's just your friend."
"That's because it's what I needed to say so that you'd go out with me."

Dude. I've been that invited-along-third-wheel-friend. NOT AMUSING!

I've also been "stealth-dated" like that. EVEN LESS AMUSING.

From:

missysedai.livejournal.com

You are not entitled to have a relationship in your life just because you want one.

Oh my GODS, I can't tell you how many people I know who need to have this hammered into their fucking skulls and possibly tattoed backwards onto their foreheads until they get a firm grasp of Clue Number One.

And then there's Clue Number Two, which the author also nicely points out: spending the rest of your life squawking "stupid bitch" about the girl who turned you down? Obsessive. Sure if she was rude about it, she was a bitch, but she's not a bitch for simply not dating you. The primary beef always seems to be "Stupid fucking bitch ruined my life! Everything would be perfect if that stupid bitch had just cared about me! Why wouldn't she love me??" (Because of course, it's all about you, the girl's feelings are irrelevant.)

...and all the while, with the whining about what you can't have, you make the people who truly do care about you fucking miserable. I swear, these people need to be told to get a new godsdamned map of the universe, because the one showing them to be the center of it is horribly wrong.

From: