I have seen the future.

The Red Skull and Baron Zemo are in some bar going "You mean that's all we really had to do? Shoot him from across the street? You've gotta be fucking kidding me!"

Once again, Marvel, lame.

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It could have been worse.

It could have been DC.

Or WCW.

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Who killed him? True.

Although, seeing the NWO kill him would have a certain poetic irony to it.

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Who killed him?

It's not revealed yet.

However, smart[1] money has the killer as Tony Stark. Not that he did the shooting himself, but that he arranged it. After all, he already arranged a hit on Namor's people to cause Namor to invade the surface world and provide a threat that he could get more power through saving America from, and they need to set up some kind of villain for World War Hulk.

Of course, given the current writing, I suspect *the Hulk* might be the villain of World War Hulk, with the valiant fascist Tony Stark once again saving America from threats they shouldn't think about, in ways that they shouldn't complain about even if he DOES totally eliminate their rights int he process.

[1]:The most inappropriate adjective POSSIBLE if you're continuing to buy main-universe Marvel comics after Civil War, but I digress

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I meant "Are you saying it could have been DC or WCW who killed him, and that would have been worse?"

Also, from Wikipedia:
In Captain America #25, Steve Rogers is shot in the shoulder, chest, and stomach by a sniper on his way up the steps to Federal Court. In the ensuing crowd chaos, he is shot three times with a shotgun, and later appears to die of his injuries. It is later revealed that the plan was orchestrated by the Red Skull; the sniper was Crossbones, and Sharon Carter, under a hypnotic suggestion by Dr.Faustus, was the person who had shot Rogers in the stomach. Marvel Entertainment editor in chief Joe Quesada said, however, that a Captain America comeback wasn't impossible.[2] The character's death came as a blow to co-creator Joe Simon, who said 'We really need him now.'" [2]

Supposedly, Ms. Marvel says something in The Initiative about Cap being alive and in some secure location, but the timing makes it suspect as to whether the scene happens before the shooting or after it.

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"Are you saying it could have been DC or WCW who killed him, and that would have been worse?"

Ah, no. I was saying that it could have been in a DC comic, meaning it would have been *even more* idiotic, or it could have been in a comic scripted by the WCW writers, which, as hard as it is to conceive, would be EVEN WORSE than the way DC would write it.

(Also: Wasn't Crossbones last seen WORKING FOR TONY STARK in the Civil War story?)

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Uh, no. DC wouldn't have done it more idiotic. That's one of the reasons my DC list has gone up and my Marvel one has disappeared. Despite the dead people yo-yo in 52 (and the non-yo-yoing of one of my favorites), there's just no comparison in the least.

I don't know if Crossbones was working for Stark, I'm not paying that much attention to Marvel. There's nothing in his Wikipedia entry about it, and I'm going to guess that a longtime employee of the longtime enemy of Captain America is more likely working for him and not Tony Stark.

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It's true. Given some of the stupid writing of Civil War, it might actually be true that Tony Stark--the man with the plan, the pusher of registration, and now the head of SHIELD--had absolutely nothing to do with security for Steve Rogers and was simply too busy to think or care "Hey, Captain America is going to be out in public and has super-villains out there who hate him. Good thing I don't have to worry about that--after all, it's not like his getting shot while going to trial would at all be a factor in public perception of the registration act, and wouldn't at all turn him into a martyr or anything for the resistance. I wouldn't want that, even if his becoming a martyr might give me *more* of an excuse to crack down..."

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lurkerwithout.livejournal.com

I'm still planning on picking up some Main Universe stuff in trades as it comes out. Annihilation, White Tiger, Agents of ATLAS, the 2nd Nextwave trade, maybe the Vaughn run for Runaways. But not even my fanboy luv of Warren Ellis or Brubaker will get me to feel anything but scorn for the current runs of Thunderbolts or Captain America.

And I *think* that the Jessica Drew/Carol Danvers conversation is supposed to be post snipering...

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harald387.livejournal.com

Really, look at it like this:

You have a guy who is not immune to bullets.
While he is able to react instantly and effectively to any threat he can perceive - even to the point of getting away scot-free from a situation where he is surrounded by guns pointed right at him - he does not have any incredible power of precognition.

If you told me 'figure out how to kill this guy', that's how I'd do it. Sniper from a kilometer away, bullet through the head.

That doesn't make it any cooler, but it *is* at least moderately logical.

-K"H"S

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That's exactly my point. Joe Sixpack can come up with that, but the super intelligent criminal masterminds Cap's fought for 60 years can't? That's why it's not moderately logical.

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harald387.livejournal.com

I'm willing to accept that comic book supervillains are willing to go to truly idiotic lengths in order to ensure their nemesis has a chance to look upon them and despair before dying.

All that said, someone else put it well: Snipers killing supers is for RPGs, where you want to keep the players and their characters from getting too uppity. Keep it out of the comics.

It's a logical way to kill Cap, which is why it's so very lame for it appear in a comic.

-K"H"S

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Snipers killing supers is for RPGs, where you want to keep the players and their characters from getting too uppity.

Bullshit. That's a cheap way out to make sure the characters don't get to *be cool*, takes unfair advantage of the conventions of superhero games, and punishes players for not thinking adversarily and making every character bulletproof.

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harald387.livejournal.com

The problem with superhero RPGs in general is that the cool characters can't be challenged, and the realistic characters aren't cool. If I wanted to write a pre-scripted series where I knew the characters would overcome every obstacle, I wouldn't be gaming; removing the element of risk from an RPG - which a supers game that follows the genre conventions does, because one of the genre conventions is that the heroes don't die - removes most of the elements that make *running* an RPG fun.

Which is why I don't run supers games anymore, or when I do they're specifically very low-powered supers games.

You know, I think that also hits the nail on what's been bothering me about Savage Worlds. But that's a discussion for a different time.

-K"H"S

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No, the convention of superhero stories is that the heroes don't die *casually* or *meaninglessly*.

Even when the writing is dumb, the idea that the death is supposed to be important and mean something is there.

The problem with superhero RPGs in general is that the cool characters can't be challenged, and the realistic characters aren't cool.

In a supers game, characters who can't be challenged aren't cool in the first place, but neither are characters who can't stand out, either.

Nobody gives a shit about Superman except when he's in a situation where his powers don't help him. Nobody cares about Wolverine when he can literally be atomised and regenerate from the adamantium skeleton alone, with no organic material left at all[1].

At the same time, nobody gives a shit about stilt-man, or Random Mutant Blaster #3 when Cyclops and Havok are around. Would you read a Batman comic where he never got to win a fight, outthink an opponent, or solve a mystery? Where he failed at every single turn before the villain gave himself up? Heroes get a chance to show off sometimes, where their abilities make a difference. That's the point of playing the heroes.

[1]: That actually happened recently. Wolverine was reduced to component-atoms-and-adamantium skeleton, and regenerated back to full health. In a matter of seconds. Whee.

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Aw, c'mon, leave poor Stilt Man alone.

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You're right, Stilt-Man is a bad example, because he *sucks so much* that that's how he stands out: he gets to be cool and interesting and entertaining by sucking, and being played for laughs... and then capturing Spiderman while Spidey is too busy laughing at him to pay enough attention.

(And then Stilt-Man was captured by a troop of boy scouts, who released Spiderman. Who was very embarassed.)

But the point is that nobody wants to read about, or play, Joe Average The Guy Whose Powers Are Cool And All But Never Actually Do Anything Because The Target Is Always Immune Or Out Of Range Or Made Of Joe's Only Weakness, Howler Monkeys.

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Oh no, I agree. I was just trying to save poor Stilt Man.

BTW, Wolverine was reduced to his adamantium skeleton alone. Because his skull was adamantium, it protected his brain which then regenerated him. Not saying that's any less lame, but it makes more sense than your "component-atoms-and-adamantium skeleton" explanation did.

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Except that:
#1: His skull has holes in it. Like his nose and eyesockets.
#2: The art clearly showed, through the nose and eyesockets, that his skull was completely empty.
#3: The attack that did this was of a sort that it really both could and SHOULD clean the bits behind the skeleton, too, meaning that the only stuff left would be completely surrounded by adamantium.
#4: The adamantium skeleton actually fell apart in places before he regenerated.
#5: I'm sure you can see the problem inherent in regenerating when your bones are all in the wrong places and your only flesh to regenerate from is completely surrounded by adamantium.

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Ugh.

Maybe there was a tiny filament of not-totally-destroyed brain tissue at the back of this skull, which then regenerated a completely new him, and he just tore miself open and put the adamantium bones in later in place of the new ones he'd just grown?

Ow, that even hurt to type.

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Yeah. Didn't think of that. Don't mind me, I'm just teh dumb.

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That icon looks amazingly like a 5-1/4" floppy.

It's weirdly hypnotic.

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Curses, why did you point that out....

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Connections between vertebrae, with the entire spine normally coated with adamantium. Vertebrae separate, allowing for a biological vector for regeneration. Maybe.

I just find that bit interesting considering the whole bit of magneto pulling out his skeleton on a later occasion. By all rights, wouldn't that then just clone him?

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No, because Magneto didn't pull out his skeleton. He pulled out the adamantium which laces his skeleton. That adamantium can no more clone Wolverine than tooth fillings or an earring could.

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Ahh, thought that all of the bones were pulled rather then just the lacing.

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Resort to the tropes of the genre. There are dozens of ways to challenge heroes without killing them.

(First, you get their girlfriend. Then, you get a refrigerator...

(Sorry, I'm being a bittermint.)

There's a difference between "not dying" and "winning".

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Snipers killing supers is only for RPGs if the supers are vulnerable to sniping.

(Furthermore, snipers killing supers is only for RPGs if the game is suited to such behaviour, and if you can't find a better way to slap players down than shooting someone I'm not sure I'd be interested in the game either, thankyouverymuch. It's like saying blowing up Elysium is only for LARPs and not for Vampire novels.)

That said Cap is *barely* a superhero; he's got about as many actual powers as Batman--I'd place him as having less than Adrian Veidt--and much less in the way of gadgets.

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I would judge him has much more potent then Batman super-power wise. Even minor super strength and the shield of doom beats the Dark Knight (who's only super power is shared with Ted Turner).

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He has no superstrength. He is peak normal human. So's Batman.

And cool as the shield is, it doesn't match up to the Batmobile, Batarang, Utility Belt, Batcycle, Batplane, Batglider, Bat-Female-Supervillain-Repellent, and what-all.

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Apologies, i thought that low-level spiderman-equivalent super strength was part of his set-up. Sill, what i grabbed off wikepaedia is below, and i believe it trumps batman.

"Rogers in the regular Marvel Universe has no superhuman powers, although as a result of the Super-Soldier serum, he is transformed from a frail young man into a "perfect" specimen of human development and conditioning. Captain America is as intelligent, strong, fast, agile, and durable as it is possible for a human being to be without being considered superhuman. He was once seen bench-pressing 1100 lbs. unassisted.[40] The formula enhances all of his metabolic functions and prevents the build-up of fatigue poisons in his muscles, giving him endurance far in excess of an ordinary human being. This accounts for many of his extraordinary feats, including running a mile in a little more than a minute.[41] Furthermore, his enhancements are the reason why he was able to survive being frozen in suspended animation for decades. Rogers is also unable to become intoxicated by alcohol and is immune to many diseases."

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You are correct. In that Steve Rogers is immune to many diseases and is unable to get drunk, he is tougher than Batman.

(I submit that as a whole, the Bat-$GADGET probably makes up for this.)

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Plus Bruce Wayne is a hell of a lot more intelligent than Steve Rogers.

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Eeehhhhn... I don't know. Rogers is peak human in all ways, including intelligence. It doesn't usually matter, so it doesn't come up a lot. But I'd file them as tied on that, too.

But I still think Batman would win in a fight, because Batman cheats.

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atlasimpure.livejournal.com

HACKS! Marvel only employs HACKS!

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