It's a headdesk moment. It's probably a semi-calculated PR move.
Doesn't stop the fact that it's damned stupid. Thus we go to Bush is stupid and it's catching.
Ok, that's actually unfair. As a political PR move, it makes the Iraqi government look more effective, eliminates prisoners that probably shouldn't have been prisoners to begin with. (They weren't even charged with anything, come on) and doing during a culturally significant event makes it that much more a cause for celebration. In the minds of the PR people. And, due to the upcoming change in administration in the US government, it's not much of a risk for them (but quite possibly a damned mess to clean up for the person who comes after).
Of course, the release of 1500 out of 23,000 people is something of a bittersweet even Punic victory.
The possible consequences, which I would like to think are unintended (although it is a measure of my distrust of my government that I'm not sure it is), is that you are releasing 1500 people who not only have a deep and abiding distrust of Americans anyway but who could potentially incite other people to action - either through news media (which is how I would do it - lasts longer, makes you look entirely innocent even if you aren't and with the proper spin is even more damaging) or though incitement of action. Either of which could be the spark that lights the powder keg.
Those people and their families were going to hate Americans for locking them up, torturing, raping, and murdering them without cause, trial, or recourse, regardless of when they were released.
The thing is, the whole "50 a day" thing? That doesn't sound like a court system clearing people of wrongdoing and releasing the justly accused as their guilt has not been proven. More than anything else, that sounds like a *terrorist* releasing *hostages* to earn the goodwill of the police.
Fundamentally, what you have here is an issue of guilt: Either those 1500 people *did something*[1] that justifies their imprisonment, in which case you're releasing them to reoffend, or those 1500 people *did not do anything*[2], in which case you're holding all 1500 of them in your gulag until Ramadan for *no reason at all*, and you're not releasing them all immediately because.... nobody knows why.
[1]: Previous records and US tactics indicate that no, they did *not* do anything wrong, in the least.
[2]: See [1]. Given US practices, I would be seriously surprised to find even one legitimate terrorist, who attacked US forces in anything other than self-defense, in US custody.
No it doesn't. I'm talking about what's going on in the minds of these people doing the releasing, the decision-makers. From any way you look at it, it's a stupid move. It was stupid in the first place and it's stupid now. This whole Iraqi war is stupid and ignorant and a damned waste.
You do not send a army to do a policemen's job.
If they weren't terrorists before it's better than even odds they are now.
I'm an American, I oppose Bush, his entire administration and this war. Take off the first part of that sentence and I'd automatically get a lot more respect. The fact that I'm an American, especially now, means that people look at me in disgust and/or fear. Because I'm American. And that galls. It makes me feel ashamed that we couldn't stop this idiot from taking over our country and ruining our good name. Or at least ruining our name.
We have a fundie nutjob in power. And he was in power when all this went down. He's made so many mistakes that we'll be years, decades, recovering from it. If we ever manage to do so.
So this fundie and his views have influenced everything we do. When the President turns a bind eye to the operations of the people under him...
But he didn't do that. He did the ol' wink-wink nudge-nudge. He may never have said anything (plausible deniability) but he knew and, on some level, approved.
As bad as he's screwed the world, and he has, no denying, it's also the rest of the Americans who are going to pay the price for years, not just the people we're fighting.
Wars will end but people remember.
So, out of the 23,000 people being held, I figure maybe 1/4 are there legitimately. And that's me being overly kind to the US. (Not saying that that number represents all terrorists, just that they've done something that merits them being there)
By the time they all leave, through one way or another, you're going to have a very respectable army, familiar with the area, troop movements and patterns, able to survive in harsh conditions who hate everything that you are and everything that you have done for just cause.
I'm not arguing with you, I happen to agree with you. But I know how their minds work. It isn't logical, it doesn't makes sense - but to them, it does.
And I, poor fool that I am, can follow the twisted logic that they use.
The whole "50 a day" thing? That doesn't sound like a court system clearing people of wrongdoing and releasing the justly accused as their guilt has not been proven. More than anything else, that sounds like a *terrorist* releasing *hostages* to earn the goodwill of the police.
Those people and their families were going to hate Americans for locking them up, torturing, raping, and murdering them without cause, trial, or recourse, regardless of when they were released.
The thing is, the whole "50 a day" thing? That doesn't sound like a court system clearing people of wrongdoing and releasing the justly accused as their guilt has not been proven. More than anything else, that sounds like a *terrorist* releasing *hostages* to earn the goodwill of the police.
Fundamentally, what you have here is an issue of guilt: Either those 1500 people *did something*[1] that justifies their imprisonment, in which case you're releasing them to reoffend, or those 1500 people *did not do anything*[2], in which case you're holding all 1500 of them in your gulag until Ramadan for *no reason at all*, and you're not releasing them all immediately because.... nobody knows why.
[1]: Previous records and US tactics indicate that no, they did *not* do anything wrong, in the least.
[2]: See [1]. Given US practices, I would be seriously surprised to find even one legitimate terrorist, who attacked US forces in anything other than self-defense, in US custody.
There is religious precedent for releasing prisoners during Rammadan, it's been fairly common throughout Muslim societies and grew out of much the same sentiment that caused Pontius Pilate to release Barabas to the Jews.
Also, much like Gitmo, a lot of these people have been determined to be A. No longer a threat or B. No longer worthwhile as intel sources and the US was probably LOOKING for a way to release them in a positive manner.
If these people are dangerous and need imprisoning (and have been duly convicted) then a holiday shouldn't be reason to let them go
If they AREN'T dangerous and haven't been convicted then they SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN IN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE! And if they should be released, they should ALL be released NOW, not 50 a day over the damn feast (and don't tell me for a second that there are EXACTLY 50 people in there for every day of Ramadam, which means people are going to be left behind who should be out).
All it does is tell people "hey, we lock people up for shits and giggles!"
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theweaselking
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-31 11:06 pm (UTC)Doesn't stop the fact that it's damned stupid. Thus we go to Bush is stupid and it's catching.
Ok, that's actually unfair. As a political PR move, it makes the Iraqi government look more effective, eliminates prisoners that probably shouldn't have been prisoners to begin with. (They weren't even charged with anything, come on) and doing during a culturally significant event makes it that much more a cause for celebration. In the minds of the PR people. And, due to the upcoming change in administration in the US government, it's not much of a risk for them (but quite possibly a damned mess to clean up for the person who comes after).
Of course, the release of 1500 out of 23,000 people is something of a bittersweet even Punic victory.
The possible consequences, which I would like to think are unintended (although it is a measure of my distrust of my government that I'm not sure it is), is that you are releasing 1500 people who not only have a deep and abiding distrust of Americans anyway but who could potentially incite other people to action - either through news media (which is how I would do it - lasts longer, makes you look entirely innocent even if you aren't and with the proper spin is even more damaging) or though incitement of action. Either of which could be the spark that lights the powder keg.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-09-01 12:23 am (UTC)The thing is, the whole "50 a day" thing? That doesn't sound like a court system clearing people of wrongdoing and releasing the justly accused as their guilt has not been proven. More than anything else, that sounds like a *terrorist* releasing *hostages* to earn the goodwill of the police.
Fundamentally, what you have here is an issue of guilt: Either those 1500 people *did something*[1] that justifies their imprisonment, in which case you're releasing them to reoffend, or those 1500 people *did not do anything*[2], in which case you're holding all 1500 of them in your gulag until Ramadan for *no reason at all*, and you're not releasing them all immediately because.... nobody knows why.
[1]: Previous records and US tactics indicate that no, they did *not* do anything wrong, in the least.
[2]: See [1]. Given US practices, I would be seriously surprised to find even one legitimate terrorist, who attacked US forces in anything other than self-defense, in US custody.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-09-01 12:47 am (UTC)You do not send a army to do a policemen's job.
If they weren't terrorists before it's better than even odds they are now.
I'm an American, I oppose Bush, his entire administration and this war. Take off the first part of that sentence and I'd automatically get a lot more respect. The fact that I'm an American, especially now, means that people look at me in disgust and/or fear. Because I'm American. And that galls. It makes me feel ashamed that we couldn't stop this idiot from taking over our country and ruining our good name. Or at least ruining our name.
We have a fundie nutjob in power. And he was in power when all this went down. He's made so many mistakes that we'll be years, decades, recovering from it. If we ever manage to do so.
So this fundie and his views have influenced everything we do. When the President turns a bind eye to the operations of the people under him...
But he didn't do that. He did the ol' wink-wink nudge-nudge. He may never have said anything (plausible deniability) but he knew and, on some level, approved.
As bad as he's screwed the world, and he has, no denying, it's also the rest of the Americans who are going to pay the price for years, not just the people we're fighting.
Wars will end but people remember.
So, out of the 23,000 people being held, I figure maybe 1/4 are there legitimately. And that's me being overly kind to the US. (Not saying that that number represents all terrorists, just that they've done something that merits them being there)
By the time they all leave, through one way or another, you're going to have a very respectable army, familiar with the area, troop movements and patterns, able to survive in harsh conditions who hate everything that you are and everything that you have done for just cause.
I'm not arguing with you, I happen to agree with you. But I know how their minds work. It isn't logical, it doesn't makes sense - but to them, it does.
And I, poor fool that I am, can follow the twisted logic that they use.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-31 11:42 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-09-01 12:13 am (UTC)1. There are 1,500 innocent Iraqis that we have locked up and can let loose.
2. we are going to be freeing 1,500 terrorists in order to celebrate Ramadan.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-09-01 12:23 am (UTC)Those people and their families were going to hate Americans for locking them up, torturing, raping, and murdering them without cause, trial, or recourse, regardless of when they were released.
The thing is, the whole "50 a day" thing? That doesn't sound like a court system clearing people of wrongdoing and releasing the justly accused as their guilt has not been proven. More than anything else, that sounds like a *terrorist* releasing *hostages* to earn the goodwill of the police.
Fundamentally, what you have here is an issue of guilt: Either those 1500 people *did something*[1] that justifies their imprisonment, in which case you're releasing them to reoffend, or those 1500 people *did not do anything*[2], in which case you're holding all 1500 of them in your gulag until Ramadan for *no reason at all*, and you're not releasing them all immediately because.... nobody knows why.
[1]: Previous records and US tactics indicate that no, they did *not* do anything wrong, in the least.
[2]: See [1]. Given US practices, I would be seriously surprised to find even one legitimate terrorist, who attacked US forces in anything other than self-defense, in US custody.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-09-01 12:28 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-09-01 01:42 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-09-01 12:41 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-09-01 02:04 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-09-01 02:43 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-09-01 02:46 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-09-01 03:35 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-09-01 04:05 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-09-01 08:49 am (UTC)Also, much like Gitmo, a lot of these people have been determined to be A. No longer a threat or B. No longer worthwhile as intel sources and the US was probably LOOKING for a way to release them in a positive manner.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-09-01 04:05 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-09-02 11:29 am (UTC)If these people are dangerous and need imprisoning (and have been duly convicted) then a holiday shouldn't be reason to let them go
If they AREN'T dangerous and haven't been convicted then they SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN IN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE! And if they should be released, they should ALL be released NOW, not 50 a day over the damn feast (and don't tell me for a second that there are EXACTLY 50 people in there for every day of Ramadam, which means people are going to be left behind who should be out).
All it does is tell people "hey, we lock people up for shits and giggles!"