"Oh hey, my fans prayed to the many many gods of Wicca and won the lottery and are giving me stuff" is not an accepted justification for increasing your Resources. ;)
(Though I'd suspect that the congregating and the coming with money are mutually exclusive for Mr. Stilling.)
*is suddenly imagining all the animal familiars at Hogwart's reacting to the presence of Zosimus* *imagines exactly how well collecting a bunch of people who *want* to believe in the supernatural and then never showing up except after dark and being unnaturally disfigured and never eating would work*
The Hogwarts part does seem to be the article's writer attempting relevance. It makes a nice change from the usual "witches-at-Halloween"-type articles we get here in the States.
However, the last attempt that I know of to start a school of this type did not go well at all. Based on my own training and experiences, Wicca does not lend itself to formal, classroom-style instruction, at least not unless the classes are really, really small. Covens are the size they are for a reason.
(That said, the Wiccan church I belong to has classes and an accredited seminary. On the other hand, I still don't find class-based training the best way to do this stuff.)
Well, there's a reason I italisized "possible". Plus the fact that I know I don't really understand enough to make an informed discussion about his plans. Making bargains with higher powers for personal gain never struck me as a good way to go, just on general principles.
But I managed to put in a say for the opposing side. :)
"He claimed that he had made bargains with the many, many gods of Wicca in return for his win. 'You let me win the lottery and I'll teach,' is the deal he is said to have struck."
Maybe I knew an especially backwards lot of Wiccans, but the above quote is the sort of thing they would have never, ever, ever done.
For one thing, there are only two gods of the Wicca, not many, many.
For another, since Wiccans aren't supposed to charge for training, I find his notion that he must win a lot of money in order to teach suspicious. At most, we might charge for supplies, or solicit donations for a rented space or to keep the lights on. Actually making money from training in the Craft is a huge no-no.
Oh, come on. It's a religion based around a "do what feels good" ethic, with no central authority or consistent canon AND that's entirely based around fictional sources from the last 50 years. Who gets to say you can't charge for Wizzard training, again?
If you interpret the mandate to do no harm very loosely, yes.
with no central authority or consistent canon
Central authority, granted—that's part of the point—but there is a consistent body of practice. I'm not sure canon applies to something that does not require a particular set of beliefs, though.
that's entirely based around fictional sources from the last 50 years
Er...not exactly. Though I'll freely admit that cribbing from Murray was a dumb move on Gardner's part.
(Substitute "mostly" for "entirely" and you'd have a point.)
I'm not exactly sure where you got that idea. It is, at best, narrow. there are usually two aspects of the divine celebrated, but I've never met any respectable wiccan who really honestly picked two gods.
Also, making money from training IS a no-no, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the idea is to have a school with wica as the sidebar, not to have a school for teaching witchcraft, as this article almost states. I could be wrong, though.
Most of those I know (who are admittedly fairly hard-line about this) say that there are two gods of the Wicca, and that you meet them upon initiation. (This does not mean that these are the only two you must acknowledge or work with, however, and I'll agree that most Wiccans I know work with more than those two and may well have rituals or celebrations for others.)
I've seen a lot of argument about this subject in some quarters (heh) and, yes, my assertion is toward the narrower end of that debate. It doesn't make a whole lot of difference to me personally, but I think we can probably agree that a lot of Wiccans fall closer to that end of things than "You can do whatever you want!" which, as far as I can tell, is closer to popular perception than actual practice.
I find the idea of a personal Vatican pretty intriguing, actually. You could declare yourself Pope, just like in Church of the Subgenius, and set off a little puff of smoke whenever you liked.
Also, there's no such thing as legal recognition of a religion in the United States. (I don't know where you live, so just pointing this out in case you don't know.)
A religious organization, i.e. a church, can attain tax exempt status, but that's not quite the same thing.
Give John credit, he's mean to the big religions, he's mean to the small religions, he's mean to the Western religions, he's mean to the Eastern religions. It's equal opportunity irreverence.
Wow. that's a very different point of view in the article than the first one I read. The first one made it sound like the school would be like a catholic school, only for wicca (except that they would also teach other faiths and not cram religion down anyone's throat). I wonder which one is more accurate.
The thing about religious schools, like Catholic schools and Lutheran schools, is that they have a resource base on which to draw (namely, their churches). Wicca is tiny, comparatively speaking, has relatively few known wealthy adherents, and almost no churches (and there's considerable debate about whether it should have churches at all; in its traditional form, Wicca does not lend itself at all to a congregational model).
please allow me to direct you to my LJ (http://matronmalice.livejournal.com) for my take on this, and you can see what all of my granola-eating hippie friends have to say about it (mostly "yay!" and "why are you down on this guy?"). it's the entry with 45 comments. personally, i am just kind of aghast. hugs, e
If I won the lottery, I think I could think of worse places to live than hiring the set designers of the Potter movies to build me a giant ancestral castle. Especially with lots of cool shortcuts and secret passages.
Except that the lottery is infamously cursed, as its winners frequently end up bankrupt, miserable, and/or dead. Your ancestral castle would probably end up making you bankrupt and then collapsing on you!
Actually, come to think of it, a Barn Conversion somewhere local has most of the charm. If it was a really big lottery win, as in half a billion or so plus (you know, Bill Gates died and I turned out to be related, or something like that[1]), maybe a nice Great House plus servants somewhere. And a copious supply of hot and cold running naked chicks. At least be miserable in *style*.
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(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-31 07:45 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-31 07:49 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-11-01 07:26 am (UTC)"Oh hey, my fans prayed to the many many gods of Wicca and won the lottery and are giving me stuff" is not an accepted justification for increasing your Resources. ;)
(Though I'd suspect that the congregating and the coming with money are mutually exclusive for Mr. Stilling.)
(no subject)
Date: 2007-11-01 11:32 am (UTC)(Although in all honesty, the school thing would be a valuable resource.)
(no subject)
Date: 2007-11-01 01:24 pm (UTC)*imagines exactly how well collecting a bunch of people who *want* to believe in the supernatural and then never showing up except after dark and being unnaturally disfigured and never eating would work*
Yeeeeees. Valuable. ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-31 07:56 pm (UTC)The results were...predictable. But entertaining!
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-31 08:05 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-31 08:13 pm (UTC)However, the last attempt that I know of to start a school of this type did not go well at all. Based on my own training and experiences, Wicca does not lend itself to formal, classroom-style instruction, at least not unless the classes are really, really small. Covens are the size they are for a reason.
(That said, the Wiccan church I belong to has classes and an accredited seminary. On the other hand, I still don't find class-based training the best way to do this stuff.)
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-31 08:18 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-31 08:35 pm (UTC)I <3 Granny Weatherwax.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-11-01 02:28 pm (UTC)But I managed to put in a say for the opposing side. :)
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-31 08:16 pm (UTC)Maybe I knew an especially backwards lot of Wiccans, but the above quote is the sort of thing they would have never, ever, ever done.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-31 08:38 pm (UTC)For another, since Wiccans aren't supposed to charge for training, I find his notion that he must win a lot of money in order to teach suspicious. At most, we might charge for supplies, or solicit donations for a rented space or to keep the lights on. Actually making money from training in the Craft is a huge no-no.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-31 08:49 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-31 08:55 pm (UTC)a "do what feels good" ethic
If you interpret the mandate to do no harm very loosely, yes.
with no central authority or consistent canon
Central authority, granted—that's part of the point—but there is a consistent body of practice. I'm not sure canon applies to something that does not require a particular set of beliefs, though.
that's entirely based around fictional sources from the last 50 years
Er...not exactly. Though I'll freely admit that cribbing from Murray was a dumb move on Gardner's part.
(Substitute "mostly" for "entirely" and you'd have a point.)
(no subject)
Date: 2007-11-01 03:05 am (UTC)Also, making money from training IS a no-no, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the idea is to have a school with wica as the sidebar, not to have a school for teaching witchcraft, as this article almost states. I could be wrong, though.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-11-02 06:31 pm (UTC)I've seen a lot of argument about this subject in some quarters (heh) and, yes, my assertion is toward the narrower end of that debate. It doesn't make a whole lot of difference to me personally, but I think we can probably agree that a lot of Wiccans fall closer to that end of things than "You can do whatever you want!" which, as far as I can tell, is closer to popular perception than actual practice.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-31 08:18 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-31 08:30 pm (UTC)If he were a Catholic, it would be "personal Vatican", but the rest would be the same.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-31 08:39 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-31 08:56 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-31 10:39 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-31 08:40 pm (UTC)A religious organization, i.e. a church, can attain tax exempt status, but that's not quite the same thing.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-31 10:28 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-31 11:30 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-31 11:47 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-11-02 08:34 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-11-01 03:02 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-11-02 12:57 am (UTC)The thing about religious schools, like Catholic schools and Lutheran schools, is that they have a resource base on which to draw (namely, their churches). Wicca is tiny, comparatively speaking, has relatively few known wealthy adherents, and almost no churches (and there's considerable debate about whether it should have churches at all; in its traditional form, Wicca does not lend itself at all to a congregational model).
(no subject)
Date: 2007-11-01 02:22 pm (UTC)personally, i am just kind of aghast.
hugs,
e
(no subject)
Date: 2007-11-01 03:06 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-11-01 03:36 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-11-01 09:35 pm (UTC)It Wouldn't Happen To Me, of course.
Actually, come to think of it, a Barn Conversion somewhere local has most of the charm. If it was a really big lottery win, as in half a billion or so plus (you know, Bill Gates died and I turned out to be related, or something like that[1]), maybe a nice Great House plus servants somewhere. And a copious supply of hot and cold running naked chicks. At least be miserable in *style*.
[1] I don't play in any actual *lotteries*, so..