I have seen the future.

This is evil of the most sickening sort. I am made physically ill by this. God has no part in what these jackals are doing.

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I think that a quick survey of the Bible will reveal that God has everything to do with what they're doing.

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Christianity has nothing to do with this.

- Christ said "Suffer the little children to come unto me."
- He threw the demon out of the little girl. He certainly didn't kill her.
- "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
Etc., etc.

Now, St. Paul might have said something advocating it. But Paul was a sick, sick man.

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So, ah, the God in the New Testament isn't the same God as in the Old Testament?

'cause Jesus would be pretty shocked to hear that.

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Same God. But Jesus wasn't carping on the past. He's talking about the future. And the OT talks about what it takes to get to the Promised Land - it's just pretty extreme about what happens if you stray from the path. The OT's wording differs a lot because of the language and historical contexts changes between it and the NT. Plus, the OT was written by many people, and King James made sure that his translation was acceptable to HIM. Creative editing can make a difference.

Anyway, I said that Christianity doesn't advocate things like murdering. Not as the religion is proselytized in Africa. Missionaries do not preach such practices. They try to save souls by convincing non-believers to accept Christ. A missionary going into heathen Aftica would almost certainly not tell villagers that a tribe member is cursed and must be slaughtered; not if the missionary was preaching salvation through Redemption. That's a heathen belief, and a true Christian would not perpetuate it. Plus, I don't think it would be expedient to insult your hosts in that fasion.

True, the OT can be interpreted in a way that incites persecution. But the OT can be interpreted in many ways, usually those that are most convenient to the interpreter.

I'm not forgetting the UK witch hunts of the 16th century. But the drive to convert Africans to Christianity didn't start until the 19th century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa#Pre-colonial_exploration), when the witch hunts were over. (That's not the same as the lynch mobs.)

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So God, the sum of all perfections, changed. Riiiiiight.

And the OT talks about what it takes to get to the Promised Land - it's just pretty extreme about what happens if you stray from the path.

It does no such thing, in fact.

The OT's wording differs a lot because of the language and historical contexts changes between it and the NT.

Its "wording" is different because they're different collections of works with different purposes.

Plus, the OT was written by many people, and King James made sure that his translation was acceptable to HIM.

hahahaha, oh holy shit how much dumber can you get?

Anyway, I said that Christianity doesn't advocate things like murdering.

History demonstrates that to be a damnable lie.

Not as the religion is proselytized in Africa. Missionaries do not preach such practices. A missionary going into heathen Aftica would almost certainly not tell villagers that a tribe member is cursed and must be slaughtered

That this is happening shortly after an influx of evangelical missionaries suggests that you're seeing your religion the way you want it to be rather than as it is. Of course, the rest of your writing is indicating that, too.

That's a heathen belief, and a true Christian would not perpetuate it.

And a True Scotsman would never wear boxers under his kilt.

True, the OT can be interpreted in a way that incites persecution. But the OT can be interpreted in many ways, usually those that are most convenient to the interpreter.

The first paragraph of your response being an example.

But the drive to convert Africans to Christianity didn't start until the 19th century, when the witch hunts were over.

You were homeschooled, weren't you?

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Well, no, actually.

Just well read.

What's your excuse?

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My excuse? I was raised in the church, and I am substantially better informed about the Bible and its contents than, I would wager, the majority of Christians. I was the kid who got in trouble for pointing out contradictions in Sunday School, who embarrassed a pastor in front of everyone. I know my shit about the Bible, and about Christianity- it's why I'm not a Christian, and why Christian faith absolutely horrifies me.

I'm not sure I would classify what you're spewing as Christian, though- that entails even a vague correspondence to the Bible, and what you're writing indicates that you are not even a little familiar with that classic best-seller.

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United Methodist. It's about as theologically liberal as you can get and still really consider it a Christian church (as opposed to,say, Unitarian).

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Nah, more about "Your relationship with God" and about how great god is and about hope and love and soforth.

It was a remarkably sunny series of churches, and all the more horrible for that.

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I didn't say he wasn't talking about the past at all. Quite the opposite. I meant it more in terms of "Well, sure, we do X because the Laws tell us we can/must do it. That's one way to look at it." I.e., focussing [sp?} on everything that happened in the past. Jesus is saying, "Yeah, but the Laws also say Y and Z, and I'm here to fulfill those parts. You gotta read the rest of the book, people. You're forgetting the Prophets and interpreting the Law to your own benefit." (Gee, sound familiar these days?) "For example, there was this fellow Moses. Remember him? He brought those commandments from God? The first one says 'I am the Lord Thy God.' The second is, 'Thou Shalt Have No Other God Before Me.' The main reason I'm here is to remind you that the Big Guy, my Dad, is STILL the Lord Thy God."

Obviously I'm paraphrasing just a bit.

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I find the idea of salvation horrifying and offensive.

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When I think of salvation, I think of the Eunuch selection scene in Mel Brooks' History of the World, part 1.

"Yes, yes, no, yes, yes, oh YES! no, yes, no..."

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Yet another reason to loathe it and anyone who believes in it.

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Agreed

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Sure, I'm splitting hairs into microns.

There's the Christian dispute, I think it's between the Lutherans and everybody else (not really, I just can't remember and it's easy to blame the Lutherans) over whether true salvation comes simply through Faith, or if it comes through Works (e.g., you need to show it).

I rather like the summing up towards the end of Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett's Good Omens: The forces of Heaven and Hell are going to do battle and neither of them is going to pay any attention to what/who gets caught in the middle. We're all screwed.

Yes, the God of Abraham is astoundingly neurotic. The gods of the Greeks and the Romans were neurotic and fickle too.

My personal opinion: I completely agree with the Vedic notion. "God" just IS, it doesn't matter what you call him/her/it/them, what forms are taken, whatver. The God of the Christians is the same as Allah (and really is, actually) is the same as the spirit gods of the native Americans is the same as Buddha etc. If you believe in something that is external to you, that can be god with a lower- or upper-case G.

My sister, the Episcopalian priest, would probably burn me for heresy for maintaining this point of view. And I have probably still managed to be inarticulate about it.

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That's a definition of God which conveniently frees you from having to hold any actual views at all.

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Ex. 20:7: "You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name."

Ex. 20:16: "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour."

And others, of course, but that's the Old Testament basis of my statement.

demongrrrrl has done a fine job of pointing out a few relevant New Testament verses.

There's more to this than Scriptural references, of course, but I think your point has been adequately addressed.

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No, it's been avoided. The God of the Old Testament was a monster who commanded the genocide of several tribes and the annihilation of their cultures, in brutal and horrifying ways, for the greater exaltation of his favored tribe.

There are two realisations that follow from this. First, that makes God just another tribal God from before reliably recorded history- not substantially different from Baal or any of the others, aside from the fact that the Hebrews survived where other tribes and nations didn't. Second, Jesus, if he existed, painted a picture of God that is completely unlike the one in the holy books that he was allegedly so adept with. (Not that the Christian conception of God is any less of a fiend, but in a different way.)

One other thing:

I say: "God, as depicted in the Bible, is a Monster."
You say: "Thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain!"
I say: "Fuck yourself, you sanctimonious prick."

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"And into thineself thine own prick be true."

True, the God in the OT is a monster. If it weren't for Moses, he would have wiped the Israelites off the map several times. ("I'm gonna kill 'em this time!" "No, wait! Let me talk to them!")

As for your points: First, you're right. God WAS just another tribal god from before reliably recorded history. He was just the biggest and the best and won all the competitions and all the worshippers. That's basically it, and a good read of the Bible should clue anybody in. There's the little rain-making competition between God and Baal - God sends the rain, Baal doesn't, the people say, "Oh. Let's follow God."

History is written by the winner.

Second: Jesus didn't know the scriptures perfectly; there are places in the NT where he quotes the OT and gets it WRONG. (I learned this in a college course, I can't find the reference now and I'm not going to look.)

Also, Jesus was not a Christian. (Why does everyone forget this?) He was a good Jew, on the Liberal side maybe, but certainly a boy his mother could be proud of. This Jesus is saying, "Ya know. My Dad sent that big Flood. And you people didn't listen. He sent you into slavery and then brought you out. And you still didn't listen. He gave you a whole buttload of prophets and you ignored or killed them. Clearly you people are NOT paying attention. So this is his last resort. He's sending his son (that's me). I'm down here to redeem all your sins and maybe drill some knowledge into your stupid thick heads." That's why he says, on the cross, "Father, they know not what they do." That's a nice way of saying "They're fucking MORONS! I'm up here dying for them and they STILL don't get it!"

One thing that I like to believe is, Just because God says "Thou shalt have no other gods before me," that doesn't mean there aren't any other gods behind him. He's just wearing #1.

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True, the God in the OT is a monster.

Consider what that makes you for worshipping it.

If it weren't for Moses, he would have wiped the Israelites off the map several times.

Okay, so get this, God- THE ALMIGHTY, whose very will shapes reality, can be persuaded from his HOLY INTENTIONS- for anything he does is, by definition, holy- by a human. Your God is gullible as hell.

First, you're right. God WAS just another tribal god from before reliably recorded history. He was just the biggest and the best and won all the competitions and all the worshippers.

He didn't "win" all the worshippers; the Hebrews slaughtered thousands upon thousands of people in order to take their land and justified it by claiming that their god gave them the right and the victory. Same story as had been happening since the start of tribes and religions, same story that goes on today. At any rate, the Hebrews weren't even the best at slaughter; their own history recounts several instances when they were conquered, and suddenly out comes the self-flagellent attempts to make God happy again. Looks an awful lot like the American fuckheads who insist that Our Country Can Be Great Again If Only We Return to God, 'cause nothing's really new under the sun.

There's the little rain-making competition between God and Baal - God sends the rain, Baal doesn't, the people say, "Oh. Let's follow God."

Unless you're thinking of a story I'm not familiar with, you left out the part with the slaughter.

History is written by the winner.

Which is why Jews and Christians get histories that paint them as chosen people.

Second: Jesus didn't know the scriptures perfectly; there are places in the NT where he quotes the OT and gets it WRONG.

That would seem to be a pretty good indicator that he wasn't God, then.

He was a good Jew

Not by any contemporary measure of Judaism.

This Jesus is saying, "Ya know. My Dad sent that big Flood. And you people didn't listen. He sent you into slavery and then brought you out. And you still didn't listen. He gave you a whole buttload of prophets and you ignored or killed them. Clearly you people are NOT paying attention. So this is his last resort. He's sending his son (that's me). I'm down here to redeem all your sins and maybe drill some knowledge into your stupid thick heads." That's why he says, on the cross, "Father, they know not what they do." That's a nice way of saying "They're fucking MORONS! I'm up here dying for them and they STILL don't get it!"

Your God is a really shit communicator, as it turns out.

One thing that I like to believe is, Just because God says "Thou shalt have no other gods before me," that doesn't mean there aren't any other gods behind him. He's just wearing #1.

Your God is a monster and so are you.

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goblinpaladin.livejournal.com

*cheers you on*

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lafinjack.livejournal.com

Unless you're thinking of a story I'm not familiar with, you left out the part with the slaughter.

There's also the more modern story: god withholds rain, people cry, people pray for rain, god doesn't send rain, people pray more, god sends a huge storm that heavily damages a church and hurts some kids.

That'll teach the mundanes to get uppity.

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spartonian.livejournal.com

Don't forget... the president chosen by God doesn't send federal aid quickly enough.

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lafinjack.livejournal.com

That wasn't a real emergency, though.

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One other thing:

I say: "God, as depicted in the Bible, is a Monster."
You say: "Thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain!"
I say: "Fuck yourself, you sanctimonious prick."

I believe this was merely a quote from the OT, not intended to be an insult.

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It was pretty clearly an attempt at a rebuke, and a pathetic one at that.

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It was intended to refer to those who are torturing and killing innocents in God's name. If you see it as applying to yourself, well... maybe you're on to something, not that I expect this to bother you greatly, given the rest of your comments.

Frankly, if I were to pick something to take you to task for, that wouldn't be it.

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The context sure sounded like a "fuck you" to me. I apologise for misreading you.

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