This is, in fact, evidence of increased civilisation and sanity.

[theweaselking]

"Derangement" is pretty much exactly the WRONG word to use in this case.

Notably, the article still blames women for this. Stupid women, having "rights" and "educations", don't you see you're ruining the REALLY IMPORTANT stuff, like making sure abusive organisations clinging to bronze-age superstition stay in business?

Comments

[jagash.livejournal.com]

I didn't see it so much as blame as explanation. Imo, loss of the buildings themselves is a shame as some of the architecture is excellent. I also feel that the loss of myths deprives individuals of the lessons encoded in the myths. Then again, I'm currently reading some Joseph Campbell which explains my particular perspective.

[torrain.livejournal.com]

> I didn't see it so much as blame as explanation.

Concurred.

> I also feel that the loss of myths deprives individuals of the lessons
> encoded in the myths.

That only works if you believe that the myths are the only place someone could ever be exposed to those lessons.

(Also: *what* loss of myths?)

[jagash.livejournal.com]

*Points at the book which you have also read with the full list of myths* The bible is one of the most influential pieces of literature on western society, chock full of anecdotes, metaphors and general fiction. Not only do they help one understand certain more contemporary works (Narnia for instance), they also are exposure to a wide variety of myths. They may be elsewhere as well, but it is a single collection of all of them. In my opinion at least.

Loss of the institution, for all it's multitude of failings, does lead to a loss of exposure to that seminal work of literature and myth.

[torrain.livejournal.com]

> The bible is one of the most influential pieces of literature on western
> society,

Absolutely.

> chock full of anecdotes, metaphors

Yes, yes.

> and general fiction.

Okay, that right there? Regardless of the factual content of the book, you cannot fairly assess something written to be real as fiction.

Your assumption that Christianity leads to reading through the Bible seems seriously flawed.

You've changed your argument from being about how myths being lost means you can't learn lessons from those myths (although you still haven't explained how the myths are being lost) to being about how not being Christian removes one particular avenue of exposure to those myths (which is still not going to result in them being lost, dammit) and how the Bible provides cultural context for literature.

If you figure out exactly what you want to say, let me know? I have neither the time nor the interest necessary to dig through the flip-flopping around right now.

[flemco.livejournal.com]

Man.

Man.



I think I may move to Canada after all.

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

I think "derangement" is a good word. It implies an upheaval, an upset, a departure from the usual course.

I'm thrilled that this particular societal standard is undergoing a period of derangement!

[sivi-volk.livejournal.com]

...I'm somehow not as distraught as the article seems to think I ought to be.

[sterlingspider.livejournal.com]

A few years ago I finally admitted to my Mom that I really just was not Christian, in any way shape or form. I was not brought up religiously so she didn't freak out or anything, but she did ask me why.

I said that if nothing else, I just couldn't see fit to believe something that treats fully half the population of the world as barely better then evil, even when they actually adhere to the tenets of the faith.

She looked a little sad, but she said she couldn't blame me.

[pope-guilty.livejournal.com]

I envy you.

[sterlingspider.livejournal.com]

She was treated pretty horrifically by religious relatives, hence the reason I wasn't raised particularly religiously. I'm thankful for it but sad that her upbringing had to suck to provide that freedom for me (likewise with physical abuse).

I think it pretty interesting though that she even expressed any surprise given how; a. nonexistent my religious education had been and b. quietly but firmly feminist I am.

[pope-guilty.livejournal.com]

While I tend to describe my attitude toward religion as "Jacobin", it's a nice thought that maybe we can just let the churches decay out from under themselves.

[pope-guilty.livejournal.com]

Oh, truly, I just meant churches as in the institutions.

[jsbowden.livejournal.com]

I'm curious (since you mentioned VCU, that puts you squarely in the Commonwealth and I looked at your user info), which part of the Beach did you grow up in? I grew up there too. Plaza Elem., Plaza Jr, and Kellam High.

[lafinjack.livejournal.com]

The reason that I love old churches is the same reason that I hate the religions that inhabit them: at the time, they were of the few organizations able to afford some real structural know-how and quality materials, all paid for with they money they fleeced from the people who didn't know any better.

This church falling apart is something of a good thing in that regard.

[dreamshade.livejournal.com]

And Michael Higgins, president of Fredericton's St. Thomas University and an expert on contemporary Roman Catholicism, sees a crucial absence of "credible moderate and liberal witnesses" for reforming the Catholic Church from the inside, people who remain strongly attached to the institution and haven't left. "They don't seem to be there."

WELL MAYBE IF THE CONSERVATIVES DIDNT SAY GO HARDCORE FUNDIE OR GTFO, THEN YOU WOULDNT BE HAVING THIS ISSUE, MORAN.

Actually, the way I read it, it didn't feel like the article was actually "blaming" the women for leaving. It sounded more like the article was blaming the church for treating women like shit and making them want to leave.

[pope-guilty.livejournal.com]

Hey, the holy book they work off of is pretty clear that women are shit.

[ladyfox7oaks.livejournal.com]

As according to the editing job(s) done in the past by misogynistic, infantile, and scared little boys... we ARE.

[pope-guilty.livejournal.com]

I've never understood this argument. Is it really so hard to believe that holy documents written in ages that make our present society look positively enlightened are seething with misogyny?

[ladyfox7oaks.livejournal.com]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here...
I don't find it hard to believe at all.

The originals may not have been that vicious towards women, but it's a certain fact that the ones who have "Creatively edited" the versions of those documents since- were bent on making sure THEY held power, and that women were made out to be stupid, ignorant, and needing a man to be any sort of human at all. King James was known for his misogyny- and he was just one of the latest in a long line of editors.

[hakerh.livejournal.com]

Have you ever read God's Secretaries, by Adam Nicolson? It's an excellent discussion of how the KJV came about, and the political wrangling that went into its making. Some of it is rather surprising if you enter expecting to find a conspiracy of disempowerment. I read it during my grad school work (this period is my focus) and found it fascinating.

Yes, there was some active douchebaggery on the part of some of the translators, but it's worth mentioning that just as much active racism and misogyny was edited *out* from previous translations.

[ladyfox7oaks.livejournal.com]

Really?... hmmm- sounds interesting, thank you- I need to go check that out. (Heads to Amazon...) Oh! ummm... there appear to be several editions out here, should I be looking for a particular one?

[hakerh.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure. I think I have the first edition; I can't imagine the book has gotten worse! :)

[pope-guilty.livejournal.com]

How are you measuring content? I mean, it can't possibly be in pagecount. (And certainly you're not counting every last bit of vaguely Judeo-Christian vomit as scripture, I hope.)

My point is that the whole idea that it's full of misogyny and hate is due to how it was edited is bogus; given the books' provenance, they were likely written as misogynistic, hateful texts.

[hakerh.livejournal.com]

they were likely written as misogynistic, hateful texts

I hate to be an apologist here, but I have to say your sentence is only half true. Some of the misogyny etc *is* deliberate (and in many cases was left out when the first Bibles were being put together, despite the popularity of the texts - the Gospel of Thomas comes to mind, with its bizarre statements that women aren't allowed into heaven at all and so must undergo some sort of heavenly sex-change), but other parts are cultural and/or contemporary. Not sayin' that it's right; I'm just saying that it is equally incorrect to write off the whole body of scriptures published in the testaments as some sort of deliberately anti-woman Malleus Maleficarum. In many cases the most misogynistic texts were judged inconsistent with Jesus' writings and deliberately excluded when the Bible was compiled (except Paul, who was rather a cranky twit anyways). The worst of the biblically-justified abuse is either based on misinterpretation or is the simple effect of what happens when you try to transplant a thousand-year-old social code out of its original culture and into a new society. In similar vein, convents used to be the most radical option for women up till the late Middle Ages, for they offered a societally-condoned way for women to live free from the burdens of unwanted marriages and children. Not as good as being able to live free *and* on your own terms, but it was a start.

Huzzah, finally a use for that class on early Judaeo-Christian apocalyptic literature I took back in grad school...

[pope-guilty.livejournal.com]

In many cases the most misogynistic texts were judged inconsistent with Jesus' writings and deliberately excluded when the Bible was compiled (except Paul, who was rather a cranky twit anyways).

The fact that Paul's works were included implies that the misogyny wasn't really what caused those works to be excluded.

what happens when you try to transplant a thousand-year-old social code out of its original culture and into a new society.

The fact that that old society was misogynistic excuses it?

[hakerh.livejournal.com]

The fact that Paul's works were included implies that the misogyny wasn't really what caused those works to be excluded.

No, the difference is that Paul didn't claim his misogyny was straight from Jesus' mouth. His letters were included because of their virtue in other aspects - you don't chuck an entire book because you disagree with one part, if the rest is valuable enough to you.

The fact that that old society was misogynistic excuses it?

It doesn't excuse it in this day and age, but I'm just saying scripture has to be viewed in its context. In context, the Christian philosophies were radically liberal. It's just that society has now progressed beyond that point and the theology that was dangerously progressive for its time is now dangerously backwards. The verses that offered greater recognization of human value were meant to do just that within the framework of the culture reading them; now that society has gotten better about that as a whole, those same verses read as a backwards step - but that was never the original intent. It's a shame that the only sects that *do* continue to update their compassionate philosophies on modern issues in the original spirit of Jesus' message come under fire from those who wish to see things stagnate.

Peace, friend, I'm not trying to fight. I'm just tired of folks (in general) who can't/don't want to see that the messages of the early Church were advances for their time, and who want to paint over all of its history with the brush of modern viewpoints.

[pope-guilty.livejournal.com]

I understand that Christian theology was very progressive given the time that it's set in. I don't understand progressives of this time clinging to it and trying to constantly rehabilitate it to make it other than it is and paint it as still progressive.

I mean, I think I do, but my suspicion in that regard doesn't paint a pretty picture of those trying to rehabilitate it.

[pope-guilty.livejournal.com]

There are other churches that just don't bother with a lot of Biblical text because it is hateful and bizarre and not relevant to their congregation or anyone at all for that matter.

I find this incomprehensible. Does there come a point at which one admits that "yeah, we just make it all up"?

[pope-guilty.livejournal.com]

I'm sick of "It's true" being tied to "I want it to be true."

[peristaltor.livejournal.com]

No, no, no! One flushes shit. Women are property.

Really, would you flush your house, car or cattle? Sheesh.

[itlandm.livejournal.com]

Again, please keep your metal ages straight. Bronze Age religion was dominated by powerful goddesses and sexually explicit "fertility rites". In this particular case, the distinction is important. The patriarchal and anti-sexual nature of traditional Christianity is understood in the article to be a major reason for its recent decline.

[goblinpaladin.livejournal.com]

Which Bronze Age are you talking about?

[jerril]

Last time I checked, Egypt spent most of the Bronze age alternately interested in a dead gods penis, and the flooding of the Nile as a semen metaphor. Lots of female gods, sure, but a very patriarchal system nonetheless.

[torrain.livejournal.com]

(This comment made me laugh.)

[goblinpaladin.livejournal.com]

It's kind of sad that the church is collapsing. Surely it is an historical building-type-thing, the sort of thing that should be preserved for historical reasons?

I say sell it and turn it into a museum or something. Gut the religion, keep the pretty church.

[torrain.livejournal.com]

*looks at what tyoko is saying, below*

Maybe a community centre?

[goblinpaladin.livejournal.com]

Even better. 'Museum' was just the first idea that popped into my head.

[tyoko.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's just the funny attitude to faith borne of a country that is collectively losing it's religion, but I'm happy for a church to continue being a church for all the reasons it stands for. But maybe, the community spirit, culture and morality it stands for doesn't need to be linked to some sky god for it to continue being valid...

I would not want to see the chapels fall down even if I am an atheist.

[torrain.livejournal.com]

The Anglicans abandoned confirmation instruction as a prerequisite to taking part in the Eucharist?

*sits back, blinking*

I mean, on the one hand, it doesn't seem utterly out of character. But... wow.

(I'm a little sad to see a church that offers a gay marriage ceremony go.)