"I think he's deliberately distorting the traditional understanding of the Bible..."
You know, when your argument is that the Old Testament doesn't count, "traditional understanding" is a tricky defense. Not to mention, Leviticus is where the religious hatred of homosexuality finds its (threadbare) defense.
Paul isn't Jesus, nor is he the deity. He's a powerful man in the early church, but most accounts agree: he never even met Jesus and was converted after the Crucifixion. "But Paul Said ...", coming from a Protestant minister for whom intercessionaries are a Bad Thing, is yet another irony to add to the irony ironing the ironically ironic iron iron that is James Dobson's career of touting his family's inherited values as being the Only True And Valid Expression of Christianity in the World, PS Give Us America or the Kid Gets It. He may as well be justifying his position by saying "But Luther Said ...". Except this is not Germany, and our society might actually get to the point of recognising that people don't stop having basic rights simply because they're not citizens, are brown, sleep in caravans, or are attracted to a particular gender.
You seem more significantly more familiar with these things than me. By “intercessionary” do you mean people coming between Jesus and followers? I feel like for a lot of people the Bible is not to be questioned, that they don’t think a lot about how it was constructed and its contradictions.
Yes, "intercessionary" means someone coming between Jesus and his followers.
The protestant movement was based on the idea that the Bible, and specifically the New Testament, is the message of God (The Old Testament being included for context) - that Jesus came to deliver all the people of the world from the consequences of sin, and that all they need do is accept, believe, repent, and be saved, and that only the deity and/or/in the form of/ Jesus knew the heart of a man and only the deity and/or/in the form of/ Jesus could judge the heart of a man - and that priests, as intercessionaries, were muddying the message, preventing people from getting the message, meddling with belief, putting forth saints as false idols, judging the hearts of men and claiming to be the only way, when Jesus said he was the only way. The bible states that jesus freed his followers from the strict Levitican and Noahchide laws, and that all they need do is accept, believe, repent, and be saved, and that only the deity and/or/in the form of/ Jesus knew the heart of a man and only the deity and/or/in the form of/ Jesus could judge the heart of a man. Acts tells the story of Paul having a quarrel with Peter, who was pressing Gentiles to follow Judaic customs such as circumcision and dietary laws, as contrary to the spirit of the faith. They have a council and come back and bear letters saying (KJV) --- 28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. ---
Which is pretty simple there: Don't eat meat offered to idols, don't eat blood (which is offered to idols), or strangled things (which were usually one as offerings to idols), and from fornication. However, it's not merely teh sexins that people ought to avoid - they're talking about offerings made to idols, and then the context seems to be left off at the end. Some translations translate it as "sexual immorality", and it becomes clear after comparing a lot of translations and the original that they're talking about being a slut, with the words used in the original also being used in the context of discussing temple priestesses of negotiable virtue, and not those used in the translation of the Old Testament admonishement against laying with men.
Dobson, being a professional theologian, knows this, but maintains his position that Paul's/Peters/Apostle's guideline here is the same as the Levitican "abomination" of the Old Testament because
*drum roll*
The KJV translation is the inerrant word of the deity.
It always bothers me how much Christianity is based off of some Roman dude who went around claiming that Jesus totally spoke to him, and that where he contradicts the Gospels (or Jesus' disciples), that he's the one who's correct.
Paul was a misogynist douchebag. He was, however, the guy who said Xians don't need to get circumcised or eat Kosher. Until then, Xians had to be Jews or converted Jews.
...actually might have been better if he'd left it that way. Jews aren't evangelical, as a rule.
Well, yes. That's because being a Jew is an ethnic thing - in order to be a Jew, your mother must be a Jew. You can practice Judaism all you want, you won't be a Jew unless your mother is a Jew. If your mother is a Jew, you can practice whatever religion you want, and you're still a Jew.
It's a side effect of having an ethnicly restricted religion *and* the ethnic group involved having the same descriptor. Very bad design practice, that.
Paul's statement, in historical context, probably meant temple prostitutes -- in any case, the meaning of "against nature" in ancient Greek means "against one's own nature". Nature-capital-N wasn't even a concept yet.
The Levitican proscription is also suspect, but as shellfish is also an "abomination" a little later in the same book, it's hard to take it too seriously.
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(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-24 01:10 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-24 01:25 pm (UTC)You know, when your argument is that the Old Testament doesn't count, "traditional understanding" is a tricky defense. Not to mention, Leviticus is where the religious hatred of homosexuality finds its (threadbare) defense.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-24 02:10 pm (UTC)No, really, that's Dobson's answer to that.
ARGH
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-24 03:14 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-24 03:44 pm (UTC)"But Paul Said ...", coming from a Protestant minister for whom intercessionaries are a Bad Thing, is yet another irony to add to the irony ironing the ironically ironic iron iron that is James Dobson's career of touting his family's inherited values as being the Only True And Valid Expression of Christianity in the World, PS Give Us America or the Kid Gets It.
He may as well be justifying his position by saying "But Luther Said ...". Except this is not Germany, and our society might actually get to the point of recognising that people don't stop having basic rights simply because they're not citizens, are brown, sleep in caravans, or are attracted to a particular gender.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-24 04:06 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-24 04:28 pm (UTC)The protestant movement was based on the idea that the Bible, and specifically the New Testament, is the message of God (The Old Testament being included for context) - that Jesus came to deliver all the people of the world from the consequences of sin, and that all they need do is accept, believe, repent, and be saved, and that only the deity and/or/in the form of/ Jesus knew the heart of a man and only the deity and/or/in the form of/ Jesus could judge the heart of a man - and that priests, as intercessionaries, were muddying the message, preventing people from getting the message, meddling with belief, putting forth saints as false idols, judging the hearts of men and claiming to be the only way, when Jesus said he was the only way.
The bible states that jesus freed his followers from the strict Levitican and Noahchide laws, and that all they need do is accept, believe, repent, and be saved, and that only the deity and/or/in the form of/ Jesus knew the heart of a man and only the deity and/or/in the form of/ Jesus could judge the heart of a man.
Acts tells the story of Paul having a quarrel with Peter, who was pressing Gentiles to follow Judaic customs such as circumcision and dietary laws, as contrary to the spirit of the faith. They have a council and come back and bear letters saying (KJV)
---
28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
---
Which is pretty simple there: Don't eat meat offered to idols, don't eat blood (which is offered to idols), or strangled things (which were usually one as offerings to idols), and from fornication. However, it's not merely teh sexins that people ought to avoid - they're talking about offerings made to idols, and then the context seems to be left off at the end. Some translations translate it as "sexual immorality", and it becomes clear after comparing a lot of translations and the original that they're talking about being a slut, with the words used in the original also being used in the context of discussing temple priestesses of negotiable virtue, and not those used in the translation of the Old Testament admonishement against laying with men.
Dobson, being a professional theologian, knows this, but maintains his position that Paul's/Peters/Apostle's guideline here is the same as the Levitican "abomination" of the Old Testament because
*drum roll*
The KJV translation is the inerrant word of the deity.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-24 06:16 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-24 06:26 pm (UTC)...actually might have been better if he'd left it that way. Jews aren't evangelical, as a rule.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-24 06:28 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-24 06:41 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-24 06:50 pm (UTC)It's a side effect of having an ethnicly restricted religion *and* the ethnic group involved having the same descriptor. Very bad design practice, that.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-24 06:23 pm (UTC)The Levitican proscription is also suspect, but as shellfish is also an "abomination" a little later in the same book, it's hard to take it too seriously.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-26 05:59 am (UTC)I read that as "inbred values" at first, and it still made perfect sense.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-24 03:13 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-24 03:50 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-24 05:57 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-24 06:16 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-26 06:00 am (UTC)