(no subject)

[theweaselking]

Because antipope didn't know about it until recently, it has been brought to my attention that The Dykes To Watch Out For Movie Test is not as well known as it should be.

The DTWOF Movie Test is simple. In order to pass, a movie must have:
1) two female characters
2) who talk to each other
3) about something besides a man.

The extended version adds "or marriage or babies" to #3.

How often do *you* see any piece of fiction, movies or otherwise, that passes even the simple version?

That's what I thought.

Comments

[harald387.livejournal.com]

Assuming that they can talk about a man (or men) at some point, but must talk about things other than men at some point as well (or even most of the time), then it's not nearly as uncommon as you're painting it to be.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

Name, for me, the last five media objects you've seen that have passed.

Please.

Seriously.

And for bonus points, name all the other ones in the mean time that *haven't* passed.

Because it's totally *not* unheard of, but even Charlie thought about it and discovered that only about 60% of his own work passed.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

For me: The last that passed is... unclear. I can't remember even one, offhand.

And I've watched the entirety of Oz (a given, since there's only 2-3 female characters), the entirety of The Sopranos, the first season and a half of Supernatural, the full Doctor Who, the entire Metalocalypse, the entire Venture Brothers.

And I don't know what else.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

PS: The test is that, at some point, two female characters talk about SOMETHING that isn't a man, babies, or marriage. So it's okay if they discuss a man, as long as they discuss something else before or after.

[gilmoure.livejournal.com]

Aliens (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090605/)?

[gilmoure.livejournal.com]

D'oh! I just now read the link and comic. Sigh. I'm so unoriginal.

My bad.

[singingnettle.livejournal.com]

Well, a fair amount of what I edit, but that's because I edit science fiction and a fair amount of YA fiction that is for the pre-romance set.

More relationships are het than not, and relationships are generally a good thing in book and films. So it's not surprising that women in films talk about men. However, it's sure easier to find a film in which men don't talk about women than to find a film in which women don't talk about men.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

However, it's sure easier to find a film in which men don't talk about women than to find a film in which women don't talk about men.

That's the entire point of the test. It's not a good/bad distinction. It's merely a "does this presumption of society exist?" test.

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

Thelma and Louise

FireFly passes (Kaylee and Inarra talked about WORK, damnit!), though Serenity does not

I'm currently Netflixing Six Feet Under, and though it technically passes, there is usually subtext

The West Wing passed as well, though again, I think it squeaks through on technicalities

Independence Day passes, though it's a squeaker as well

Chicago

And I spent waaaay too much time coming up with even those poor pathetic weak examples.

[anivair.livejournal.com]

Six feet under passes with flying colors, if for no other reason that Clair's conversations with her mother. Not to mention the Aunt who goes on and on about the meaning of art.

I just re-watched John from Cincinnati, which passes with flying colors as well, though I did note last night that there is one scene in the series that opens with Tina by herself (she's a porn star) and she's looking in the mirror and adjusting her appearance. It felt thoughtless, like they could have at least given her a magazine or something.

I was hoping Juno, but it's hard to avoid the baby thing, since it's about pregnancy. Though I still think it was quality dialogue, even if most of it was baby centric, since it made sense.

But an alarming number of movies (even good movies) do not fit that profile.

[waterspyder.livejournal.com]

I hate to even admit that I watch this but I'm a sucker for anything with a Scooby Doo monster-of-the-week format. Ghost Whisperer passes on the basis that over half of the conversations are concerned with trying to figure out how to get the ghost to cross over, and then they talk about child-rearing or what to eat for dinner.

[glitteringlynx.livejournal.com]

hahaha Ghost Whisperer was a guilty pleasure of mine for a few months.

[glitteringlynx.livejournal.com]

Does the conversation have to be ONLY between two women? Just wondering if there could be a group of women, or if a group with two women and at least one male would also count.

I'm assuming it's a convo between 2 and only 2 women.

BTW, the comic strip "Between Friends" definitely counts. Most of the time the only chars are female (there's like 2 men who make cameo appearances) and they talk about work, parenting, life, etc.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

The test is about having multiple females in a conversation with each other, that isn't about a man, marriage, or babies.

So more than two females is fine.
Having a man present may or may not screw up the test. It depends on the situation, and whether their conversation is with each other, or with him.

It's not exactly a rigorous test, or one that gives you anything more than an easy measure by which to examine your own perceptions.

[peristaltor.livejournal.com]

Now that it's mentioned, not so often.

"Deathless" from the "Grindhouse" movies does well, though. The first 20 minutes is girls talking about shit they've done. The second part especially.

[anivair.livejournal.com]

Death Proof. but i agree. Brilliant film. I love me some girl power.

[geekweevil.livejournal.com]

I was going to say 'the fifth element' because there's a scene where the diva's sidekick gives information to Lelu - but Lelu doenst answer her, so it doesnt count!

On the same wavelength, i am unable to come up with a single CGI movie where the main caracter is female and not just there as the token 'this is the love interest' or the 'token female'. They are all Boy Quest movies and totally sexist usually, Robots in Particular! God i hated that movie!

[lurkerwithout.livejournal.com]

Ok, I'll just try and do it confining myself to media consumed this weekend.

Sandman Mystery Theater vol 5? Nope
James Alan Gardner's Hunted? Yes.
Revolver? No.
Eureka? Can't recall any of the conversations from the Season 2 marathon that do
Venture Brothers? This week's only had 1 female character in it, so no.
Chabon's Gentlemen of the Road. Nope
Wolverine: First Class? I don't think so. I can't recall Snowbird and Araura having anything like a conversation
Wormwood: Gentleman Corpse vol 1? Nope
Dr. Horrible Sing a long? Not even close

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

This rule is class. It excludes a lot but really opens your eyes.


A friend on coven-mate of mine had a rule that she would only see an action/fighting film if there was a woman in it who, at some point, DIDN'T need rescuing by a man.

[miz-geek.livejournal.com]

I watched Mr. & Mrs. Smith the other week, and it passes, although that kind of depends on the definition of "talking about men". Angelina Jolie talks about work with the women who work for her assassination company - work often means men, but they aren't discussing "relationships", they're advancing the plot.

A lot of Buffy would count, too, in that the women are often discussing the monster, especially in seasons where the big bad was female. Angel, not so much, because there weren't as many female characters.

[rimrunner.livejournal.com]

The last movie I saw was Hellboy, which fails if you extend rule #3. (Come to think of it, do Liz and Nuala ever speak to each other about anything in that movie, period?)

The story I'm writing now fails, but that's because there's only one female character in it.

I always assume that everyone is aware of the awesomeness that is DTWOF, despite being proved wrong so often.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

What's the passing scene? Like you said, I don't think Liz and Nuala ever have a conversation at all.

Off the top of my head

[leighdb.livejournal.com]

Well, assuming that "talking about a man" means "talking about romantic relationships/sex" as opposed to "talking about a character that happens to be male", and further assuming that the criteria doesn't demand that they never talk about relationships/marriage/babies in the film, only that at least one conversation not involve those things:

Thelma and Louise
Mean Girls
Juno
Dazed and Confused
Circle of Friends
Grease (really)
Legally Blonde
9 to 5
Carrie
Dirty Dancing (barely)
All About Eve
Beaches
Pretty Woman (believe it or not)
Switch
Catwoman (you didn't say it had to be a GOOD movie)
The Hours
Divine Secrets of the Ya-Ya Sisterhood
Steel Magnolias
Kill Bill Vol. 1
Deathproof

the Scream movies - although two women talking about "a man who's trying to kill them" may not be much of an improvement, but there is also the snarkfests between the main character and Courtney Cox's character. I'm sure I would be able to think of more horror flicks if I were into them.

-any number of "teen" flicks; someone already mentioned 10 Things I Hate About You and Bring It On; add to that Ferris Bueller's Day Off, 13 Going On 30, Clueless... Pretty in Pink might pass (I can't remember the substance of every conversation Annie Potts has with Molly Ringwald), likewise Fast Times at Ridgmont High; The Breakfast Club passes, barely (Molly Ringwald and Ally Sheedy have a brief conversation about makeup)

Re: Off the top of my head

[leighdb.livejournal.com]

Also:

Working Girl
Noises Off
Clue
The Abyss (it's brief, but it's there)

[faolan-phe0nix.livejournal.com]

Gia
Girl Interrupted

[leighdb.livejournal.com]

Crap, forgot Girl, Interrupted. And I just watched it a couple of days ago!

[sin-memoria.livejournal.com]

I can think of a few female-oriented films that might pass, though honestly it's been awhile since I've seen them. It's telling that I'd have to check to be sure.

Fried Green Tomatoes
Boys on the Side
A League of Their Own
Foxfire
Girl, Interrupted
Erin Brockovich (may not count - talking about a lawsuit in defense of sick family/kids)
Romy & Michelle's Highschool reunion (maybe - they talk about their clothes store which was given to them by a man, and a lot of inane crap)
Sister Act
and by extension, I think, The Sound of Music. I'm not going to watch it again to check.

Thanks for the reminder though. I've sent the link to one of my professors.