New York wishes it was Ohio.

[theweaselking]

... okay, having a law saying it's illegal to carry a loaded gun into a hospital emergency room is one thing.

But charging a guy with it because he was carrying the gun *when he was brought in by ambulance, who were called because he was unconscious*?

Comments

[kafziel.livejournal.com]

Don't believe New York actually does have a law saying it's illegal to carry a loaded gun into a hospital emergency room. He's being charged with attempted second-degree weapons possession, and second-degree weapons possession is just:

A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the second degree when:

(1) with intent to use the same unlawfully against another, such person:

(a) possesses a machine-gun; or

(b) possesses a loaded firearm; or

(c) possesses a disguised gun; or

(2) such person possesses five or more firearms. (http://wings.buffalo.edu/law/bclc/web/NewYork/ny3(b).htm#265.03)

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

The article says "pleaded guilty Friday to bringing a loaded gun into the Niagara Falls Memorial Medical Center emergency room"

Which made me assume that it was the bringing it to the hospital that was the issue.

[ed-dirt.livejournal.com]

so how are they going to prove that he intended to use the firearm unlawfully against another?

[kafziel.livejournal.com]

They're probably not able to prove specific intent, which is why they're charging him with attempt, rather than possession itself. New York defines "attempt" as "A person is guilty of an attempt to commit a crime when, with intent to commit a crime, he engages in conduct which tends to effect the commission of such crime." (http://wings.buffalo.edu/law/bclc/web/NewYork/ny1-2.htm#110.00) The conduct which tends to effect the commission of the crime of second degree weapons possession would be possessing a loaded firearm. The intent to commit the crime is evidenced, res ipsa loquitur, by the fact that he's carrying a loaded firearm around town on his person for no real reason; or, alternately, by having a loaded firearm on his person as he goes around town, he has dangerous proximity to the crime. Either of those would satisfy the intent requirement.

It's not the best argument in the world, but it's strong enough to be worth pleading rather than chancing a trial, especially when you're also being charged with a $100,000 theft. We don't really have the details on how connected the two charges are.

[sanityimpaired.livejournal.com]

I would expect that concealment is considered evidence of intent. Given that the article describes the gun as a derringer and that the EMTs failed to notice it until after he was in the hospital, it seems likely it was concealed.

Which is different than possessing a disguised gun, which I would think of as a gun-cane or similar nonsense.

[ed-dirt.livejournal.com]

Being on the verge of death and completely unconscious when you violate the law is no defense of violating the law.

[glitteringlynx.livejournal.com]

Evidently. lol

[cantkeepsilent.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's just me, but when someone pleads guilty to a charge, it's usually because they made a deal to get it reduced from what they really did. I'll bet you a nickel the gun isn't licensed or he didn't have a permit to carry a concealed weapon anywhere in the state.

[ed-dirt.livejournal.com]

hey Wease...you know why they've made it illegal to possess a firearm in a hospital, yeah?

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

Gangs? Two guys shoot each other, both get taken to the same hospital. Their posses show up with them, and the fight starts again in the waiting room.

(That's what the doc from Las Vegas I read said, anyway)

[aimisdirty.livejournal.com]

That doesn't work, as criminals don't tend to follow the laws.

In Ottawa, at the Civic hospital (before my day), two victims from Midway (one shooting, one stabbing) were brought in. Rival gang members. A gang fight broke out in the ER waiting room when their friends arrived. No shots were fired - but when OPS Tac showed up, they -did- recover five firearms and several edged weapons.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

Being allowed to arrest them before they do anything ont he grounds that this is the law might help.

[kafziel.livejournal.com]

That doesn't work, as criminals don't tend to follow the laws.

By that reasoning, there's no point in any criminal laws.

[aimisdirty.livejournal.com]

The point is that criminals who are carrying illegal weapons already, are NOT going to care about some silly law dictating where they can and cannot carry them.

Should the law be struck down?

No.

Is it pretty fucking pointless, since idiots with guns will do pretty much what they please anyways?

Yeah.

[kafziel.livejournal.com]

You're completely right. I mean, why bother outlawing murder? It's pointless. Murderers are still going to murder, and not going to care about some silly law dictating when they can or can't kill people. The only possible purpose behind having laws is deterrence, so if it's not going to deter, there's no point.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

The point is that you can arrest them *for carrying the gun*, whereas otherwise (in many parts of the USA) you would have to wait for them to *do* something with the gun before you could arrest them.

Also, the statement about not outlawing murder because murderers OBVIOUSLY aren't going to obey the law is a nice, clear, pointed one, too.

[ed-dirt.livejournal.com]

No. In hospitals they have schedule-3 narcotics. Morphine, Oxycontin, etc.

It's a bad idea to have armed people in the same area as all those drugs.

the law has been applied.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

Or because it's a strict liability offense and his having no intention to violate the law doesn't matter - as such, regardless of the reasonability of charging him with it, his lawyer will advise him to plead guilty because he has no legal defense, and pleading guilty saves time and allows a smaller punishment.

[cantkeepsilent.livejournal.com]

The internets aren't helping me to learn just what "no legal defense" means. Does it mean that the jury isn't allowed to exonerate you or that you aren't allowed to offer an "Oh, come ON!" summation in the hopes that at least one juror would consider the law to be overzealous.

I'm not a lawyer, but I am a western New Yorker, and I don't think I'd be particularly sympathetic to the prosecution's claim that this is a guy in need of incarceration if this is all they have (not for the weapons charge at any rate, and I doubt that the white collar shenanigans would be admissible). And I'm in the middle of the road on gun control; there are plenty of hunters around here and to them it probably smells like the government claiming that it can strip your Second Amendment rights by drugging you and dragging you inside a hospital. Maybe they can't change the law, but they'll sure refuse to convict.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

An absolute liability defense is one where your lack of intent does not matter.

Speeding, for example - it doesn't matter that you had no intention to speed or no idea you were speeding. You were speeding, and lack of intent to speed is not a valid defense.

It's possible that this law is similar - it requires no intent to carry a gun into a hospital, only that you carried a gun into a hospital.

[pope-guilty.livejournal.com]

In which case the crime was upon the people who actually conveyed the gun into the hospital- the EMTs.

[kjn]

Heh. Reminds me of the problems faced by my platoon-mates in the military. Being medical transportation guys, they were regularly tasked with transporting injured recruits to the local hospital during exercises.

Trouble was that they carried assault rifles - armed with blanks, but assault rifles - into the ER. And it was illegal to leave them with the vehicle.

On one memorable occasion, they solved the problem by speeding past the local MP checkpoint way above the mandated speed limit (70 kph), which they were allowed to do, since technically they were an emergency vehicle, and were followed all the way to the hospital by an MP on motorbike. Said MP got to pull guard duty of the car and guns after arrival.

[jagash.livejournal.com]

Gods, that must have been part of a nasty plea bargain because of how horribly flimsy that charge would be. "It's not my gun, I woke up with handcuffs on." or "It was unloaded when I last inspected my gun".