(no subject)

[theweaselking]

quoth james_nicoll: "Failed attempt at treason to be honored by America's slow learners."

Gotta love the quotes in the article. "We aren't racists! We just fly the flag of and honour the memory of a 'nation' whose sole defining characteristic was the belief that black people were subhuman and could be owned! The South Will Rise Again!"

Comments

[catlin.livejournal.com]

You know... there was more to that war then just slavery. Slavery was just the big public issue, states rights was the real issue though.

[krfsm.livejournal.com]

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth." -- C.S.A. Vice President Alexander Stephens, in his inaugural address of 1861.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

Specifically, the rights of states to keep slavery.

"State's Rights!" is a bullshit retcon. Go read the articles of seccession of the Slave States again. Every one of them except Texas says "slavery" is their ONLY reason for secession. Texas says "slavery and also those filthy, unclean natives and Mexicans".

Now go read the CSA constitution. See the changes from the US constitution? Further enshrinement of Slavery. That's the ONLY CHANGE.

The Slaver's Treason was about slavery.

[geminiknight.livejournal.com]

Since you picked one of your favorite quotes from the article, let me share the one that jumped out at me:

"Regardless of who won or lost the war that fractured America in the 1860s, troops on both sides went into battle believing they were doing the right thing and are equally deserving of respect, Potenza said."

Other than that, I've already made my thoughts on the matter known. :)

[krfsm.livejournal.com]

Does this mean Potenza is equally respectful towards NVA and US Army veterans? (I managed to avoid the obvious Godwin invocation, because doing so would be ... well, obvious.)

[geminiknight.livejournal.com]

You'd have to ask Potenza that, I suppose.

Personally, I'll respect anybody that's willing to fight and die for what they believe in. May think they're crazy-go-nuts or downright wrong, but I'll still respect them.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

Whereas I consider what they believe in, first, before respecting them for fighting for it.

[krfsm.livejournal.com]

See also and again, Godwinning.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

So without checking we can be sure the states that made up the CSA would have been hostile to the Fugitive Slave Act, since it infringed on the rights of the free states?

[kierthos.livejournal.com]

You are aware, however, of the fact that on both sides, people were drafted? And in both the South and the North, there were exemptions to the draft, or ways out of it, like paying a $300 commutation fee in the North, or being sufficiently propertied... i.e. rich enough, in the South, or the "only son" clause?

I'm not saying that the South was right. But a lot (as many as 25%) of the South's armies were conscripts, who were given no chance to escape military service. Most of these conscripts were poor, and owned no slaves at all, and resented being forced into service to protect the plantation system of the rich and powerful.

Basically, the CSA's government fucked over the common man.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

Yes.

But you don't celebrate the Confederacy or fly the Confederate flags, at that point. You mourn that the slavers used slave labour to fight their wars, too.

[pope-guilty.livejournal.com]

OH SNAP

[kierthos.livejournal.com]

To some people here in the South, flying the Confederate flag is how they honor their ancestors. I don't necessarily agree with it (and I don't agree with flying the Confederate flag on the South Carolina statehouse grounds), but if they're doing it on their property or in a private ceremony, and they're not agitating for a return of the Confederacy.... then there's not really a whole lot I can do about it.

Furthermore, there are some black people in this state who fly the Confederate flag.

Look, I've lived in the South most of my life, and I don't understand it either. But it's there.

[krfsm.livejournal.com]

they're not agitating for a return of the Confederacy

See "South Shall Rise Again, The".

[chrisrw109.livejournal.com]

What I always find interesting in these 'debates' is the way it always comes down to people respecting the personal perspective of people on one side of the debate... but not the other.

'Potenza sees the flag as a proud icon of Southern heritage that has been hijacked by undesirable elements. '

'"To me, it represents the Ku Klux Klan and racism," the councilman was quoted as saying. '

When we read that, a large number of people decide that the first person is lying, and that he really is a racist, supports slavery and is all but a card-carrying member of the KKK. While the second person is rational and correct.... even though he went around stealing items from graves.

Noone can say what Potenza really thinks, but the assumption that he must be a lying racist is pretty unjustified. On the other hand I'm not surprised at all to see that from TWK, as one of the few things we disagree on is whether or not you get to paint everyone on the other side with all of the most negative characteristics of some members of the group.

The larger point is.... the war dead honoring thing.

They're not there celebrating the confederacy, they're memorializing the people who fought / died for it. There is a difference between the two things. There is a lot to respect about the spirit of the Confederate Army even though they were doomed from the start, and I don't have a problem with these people honoring the war dead.

You would also be surprised how unhelpful it is to try to ban that sort of thing. Going around saying that you can't publically respect / honor your Great-Great-Grandfather who died fighting in the war unless you say how evil / stupid / villainous he was... doesn't make people feel worse about their Great-Great-Grandfathers. It just makes them feel more persecuted / prosecuted.

The war happened, it was a foolish endeavor and the fools lost. There were good men on both sides of the conflict, there were bad men on both sides of the conflict. The key to getting past history... is to stop re-fighting the war every time it's brought up.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

the assumption that he must be a lying racist is pretty unjustified.

I'm not assuming he's a lying racist.

I accept the possibility that he's simply deluded, just like all those people who fly swastikas as a symbol of German pride and to honour the war dead, without realising that the Nazi flag is really a symbol of attempted genocide.

[chrisrw109.livejournal.com]

Actually you don't consider what they believed in first... you assign every member of the class as individuals, the collective beliefs of that class and then you go from there...

... as if every confederate soldier was stamped from the mold of 'racist, slave-owning bastard', or as if every XXXX was a XXX-hating XXXXXXXX. (Godwinn censor).

You certainly have the right to make the assumption. But there was honor and bravery (and depravity and cowardice) on both sides of the war. Wishing doesn't make it so.

Nor did the end of the civil war immediately elevate blacks in America to the level of 'equals' it's worth noting... and if you think that was only in the South, you're sadly mistaken.

[chrisrw109.livejournal.com]

I accept the possibility that he's simply deluded, just like all those people who fly swastikas as a symbol of German pride and to honour the war dead, without realising that the Nazi flag is really a symbol of attempted genocide.

And here we were all so careful to avoid Godwinning. Ah well, was a fun debate while it lasted.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

I never claimed it did. In fact, I think I've claimed exactly the opposite - but at least they weren't legally, officially slaves any more for long once the Slaver's Rebellion was put down.

The difference between "evil and stupid but often, in general, trying to improve" (the Union) and "more evil and more stupid, and actively working to be worse" (the Slavers) is stark.

[chrisrw109.livejournal.com]

I never claimed it did. In fact, I think I've claimed exactly the opposite - but at least they weren't legally, officially slaves any more for long once the Slaver's Rebellion was put down.

Huh.

I think you and I have different definitions of the word 'slave'. Anyone without the ability or at least potential ability to influence the laws and regulations that they live under, is to some degree or another a slave, child or pet.

While black people couldn't be bought and sold after the Civil War, they were still slaves for quite some time.

[kierthos.livejournal.com]

Not everyone who flies the Confederate flag is like that.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

They were not legally, officially slaves.

It was a start. Small and insufficient, but in the right direction.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

Also: The councilman wasn't wrong, but he also wasn't saying what he should have said.

"To me, it represents the Ku Klux Klan and racism,"

Those first two words *should not have been there*.

[pope-guilty.livejournal.com]

Yeah, there's a lot of really unreflective idiots out there.

[pope-guilty.livejournal.com]

Scum don't deserve respect. Being nice to racist filth and treating them as people, treating them as equal participants in the disucssion, is reprehensible.