(no subject)

[theweaselking]

quoth james_nicoll: "Failed attempt at treason to be honored by America's slow learners."

Gotta love the quotes in the article. "We aren't racists! We just fly the flag of and honour the memory of a 'nation' whose sole defining characteristic was the belief that black people were subhuman and could be owned! The South Will Rise Again!"

Comments

[catlin.livejournal.com]

You know... there was more to that war then just slavery. Slavery was just the big public issue, states rights was the real issue though.

[krfsm.livejournal.com]

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth." -- C.S.A. Vice President Alexander Stephens, in his inaugural address of 1861.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

Specifically, the rights of states to keep slavery.

"State's Rights!" is a bullshit retcon. Go read the articles of seccession of the Slave States again. Every one of them except Texas says "slavery" is their ONLY reason for secession. Texas says "slavery and also those filthy, unclean natives and Mexicans".

Now go read the CSA constitution. See the changes from the US constitution? Further enshrinement of Slavery. That's the ONLY CHANGE.

The Slaver's Treason was about slavery.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

So without checking we can be sure the states that made up the CSA would have been hostile to the Fugitive Slave Act, since it infringed on the rights of the free states?

[publius1.livejournal.com]

No, states rights was the big public issue, slavery was the real issue. More specifically, the South depended on its agrarian economy to make enough money to be independent. Time has romanticized this, and I wish it were otherwise, but slavery was really what it was all about for the South. For the North, as Lincoln said, Unity trumped just about everything, but the reason the south seceeded was because they were afraid the Abolitionists had won.

[geminiknight.livejournal.com]

Since you picked one of your favorite quotes from the article, let me share the one that jumped out at me:

"Regardless of who won or lost the war that fractured America in the 1860s, troops on both sides went into battle believing they were doing the right thing and are equally deserving of respect, Potenza said."

Other than that, I've already made my thoughts on the matter known. :)

[krfsm.livejournal.com]

Does this mean Potenza is equally respectful towards NVA and US Army veterans? (I managed to avoid the obvious Godwin invocation, because doing so would be ... well, obvious.)

[chrisrw109.livejournal.com]

What I always find interesting in these 'debates' is the way it always comes down to people respecting the personal perspective of people on one side of the debate... but not the other.

'Potenza sees the flag as a proud icon of Southern heritage that has been hijacked by undesirable elements. '

'"To me, it represents the Ku Klux Klan and racism," the councilman was quoted as saying. '

When we read that, a large number of people decide that the first person is lying, and that he really is a racist, supports slavery and is all but a card-carrying member of the KKK. While the second person is rational and correct.... even though he went around stealing items from graves.

Noone can say what Potenza really thinks, but the assumption that he must be a lying racist is pretty unjustified. On the other hand I'm not surprised at all to see that from TWK, as one of the few things we disagree on is whether or not you get to paint everyone on the other side with all of the most negative characteristics of some members of the group.

The larger point is.... the war dead honoring thing.

They're not there celebrating the confederacy, they're memorializing the people who fought / died for it. There is a difference between the two things. There is a lot to respect about the spirit of the Confederate Army even though they were doomed from the start, and I don't have a problem with these people honoring the war dead.

You would also be surprised how unhelpful it is to try to ban that sort of thing. Going around saying that you can't publically respect / honor your Great-Great-Grandfather who died fighting in the war unless you say how evil / stupid / villainous he was... doesn't make people feel worse about their Great-Great-Grandfathers. It just makes them feel more persecuted / prosecuted.

The war happened, it was a foolish endeavor and the fools lost. There were good men on both sides of the conflict, there were bad men on both sides of the conflict. The key to getting past history... is to stop re-fighting the war every time it's brought up.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

the assumption that he must be a lying racist is pretty unjustified.

I'm not assuming he's a lying racist.

I accept the possibility that he's simply deluded, just like all those people who fly swastikas as a symbol of German pride and to honour the war dead, without realising that the Nazi flag is really a symbol of attempted genocide.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

Also: The councilman wasn't wrong, but he also wasn't saying what he should have said.

"To me, it represents the Ku Klux Klan and racism,"

Those first two words *should not have been there*.

[anton-p-nym.livejournal.com]

"Those [x], they all look alike to me." Personally, I find that statement a reprehensible overgeneralisation regardless of the value of [x].

-- Steve also isn't a fan of "for us or against us" reasoning, whether it's by the left or the right.

[flemco.livejournal.com]

Oh, you're spouting this ignorant bullshit again?

I thought we already beat this one to dust, but if you wanna go around and around as an uninformed, ignorant hick from canuckistan, I'll be happy to give you another public drubbing.

:D

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

Drubbing? Please.

Was or was not the United States Civil War fought over *slavery*, where the only reason for the CSA's existence was to continue the institution of *slavery*?

(Hint: If you say "it was not", I'm going to ask you "then why did all of the articles of secession, the constitution of the CSA, and all the public statements of the principals cite slavery as their prime and, more often, only cause?" And if you trot out "state's rights", I'm going to point out that the Slave States *did not give a shit* about the rights of the free states, and did their best to trample them whenever possible *on the issue of slavery*.)

[shemale.livejournal.com]

I thought we already beat this one to dust...

You're misremembering; what actually happened the few times this has come up in this journal is that theweaselking and a few others acknowledged that the confederate flag is a racist symbol representing the celebration by white people in the US (in both northern and southern states, believe it or not) of the racist, treasonous side of a war that white southerners started and lost--and then the defensive white masses which are apparently also on theweaselking's f-list raised a cacophony of squealing, frothing, condescending complaints about how that is bigoted against white southerners blah blah blah our heritage blah blah blah states' rights blah blah blah it was mean of the union to beat the south in a war they started.

[ladyfox7oaks.livejournal.com]

Political spin. Throughout history- there will always be people attempting to re-write it for their own gain or peace of mind.
At least- that what this article looks like to me.

[publius1.livejournal.com]

What, TWK, were you bored today or something?

O.o

[shemale.livejournal.com]

why is it even controversial to say that the confederate flag is a racist symbol

for fuck's sake, come on people

[kittikattie.livejournal.com]

I don't even know wtf.

[leighdb.livejournal.com]

For the record, as a Southerner born and raised, I do absolutely agree that the Confederate flag is a symbol of a nation that was expressly created for the purpose of propagating slavery, and that that is more than sufficient negative association to, er, negate whatever other positive symbolism it may have.

Ergo, while displaying it is and should be a constitutionally protected right, I have no problem with other people expressing the opinion that doing so is at the very least in extremely poor taste, and in any case almost guaranteed to be counterproductive to your purpose. Unless of course your purpose is to get everyone all pissed off, in which case congratulations on your success are probably in order. But to display it is unquestionably a display of a racist symbol, and it doesn't even matter whether you believe otherwise. I can stomp and yell and scream till the cows come home that "gay" ONLY means happy and brightly-colored, and it will not alter one whit the contemporary primary definition of it also meaning homosexual. Sorry, that linguistic ship has sailed, and it ain't coming back. Neither is the Confederate flag representing anything other than oppression and bigotry.

I do NOT, however, agree that the correct response to displays of racism is to shoot them, or lynch them, or any of the other patently fucking retarded "solutions" suggested in the comments to this post, any more than I agree such displays must be outlawed, because in fact they mustn't, unless we're all okay with being a big howling pack of hypocrites. I, personally, am not okay with that.

Anyone who doesn't understand why the political suppression of the expression of ideas, no matter how distasteful, is A Bad Idea is not understanding the fundamentals of the root problem here. Anyone who advocates violent suppression of distasteful ideas/displays/haircuts/whatthefuckever is officially too screaming bugnuts to be worth arguing with. Which is why I'm posting this down here instead of replying to pope_guilty, who is in deep need of therapy and possibly a restraining bolt. I'm sure he'll be down here right quick to scream insults, though, don't worry.

Freedom, as we define it in the United States, means that all groups, even racists, have an equal right to express themselves. Or, to put it another way, in America everyone has a constitutionally protected right to be a complete asshole. Bless our hearts.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I have to say that having him on my side of an argument is not always the most wonderful thing.

I, for the record, am not interested in pre-emtively shooting all racists in the face.

I am simply annoyed at the whitewashing, pun intended, of the CSA that's implied by "heritage not hate" and similar nonsensical arguments.

Thanks!

[peristaltor.livejournal.com]

This was one of the most entertaining comment threads in a very, very long time.

[the-paco.livejournal.com]

I like that there's a lot of controversy on the point, and that this kind of thing gets dragged out a lot (especially around here). Unfortunately, it's usually only dragged out by people who are so deep into one side or the other that they can't see anything aside from their own swollen righteousness, or it's brought up by armchair tacticians, historians, and politicians. Curse you, Wikipedia, curse you blessedly so.

It's good that it gets dragged out though, and that people on both sides of it vocally state their fragments and figments of knowledge, as the alternative is the writing of history, and the writing-off of the 'losing side', by the victors. America does it, but not as much as many other countries, and 'discussions' such of this (well, those points that can be filtered out of the bonfires of bullshit that inevitably flare up like a California mountainside in June) allow those willing to read between the lines to realize that the 'states rights' and 'slavery' issues are simple rhetoric.

Just like saying "communist" or "terrorist" or "Remember the Alamo" or "Don't Tread on Me" or "No more taxing the tea, you fat limey fuck, it's our turn to beat the lower classes", it's a simple lightning rod issue that was bandied about and put forth as a quick means to garner support for either side of the issue, which is now seen through the haze of history and ignorant commentary. You can't say today that America went to war with the middle east solely because someone flew some planes into two of our aging and increasingly outdated buildings, there's a myriad of issues, reasons, and history that has to be glossed over before it can be put so simply. To the common man, however, that was the galvanizing issue, and thus the one that sticks out most in peoples minds, gets the most attention in the history books, and in the fullness of time and editing, shall be chopped down so all the other reasons are an oft-forgot footnote in some kid's history-kindle.

There were a lot of reasons for the South to go to war with the North. Sure, most of them could be boiled down to "the rich upper 10% is in danger of losing it's power base", but that's true in pretty much every war. These people are choosing to memorialize the people who fought in it, losing side, sure. With our quick-and-dirty view of history, the wrong side, sure. But the people still fought, still died, and still had thousands upon thousands of personal reasons to do so.

You want to mock them? Mock both sides, I'd say. Stupid bastards shouldn't have gone to war in the first place. But then, sometimes water shouldn't be wet.

[catlin.livejournal.com]

Here here!

[the-paco.livejournal.com]

That having been said, I'd be happier if these jackasses would stop waving the Battle Flag around like it was the only flag out there. Jesus fucking Christ, southerners, can't you see it's just a lightning rod of hate and anger? Use the Stars and Bars, use the stained or unstained even. Use the old CSA Navy jack. Shit, use the state flags from the era, they were pumping out enough of the damned things. I guess with all that textile industry around and zero steel factories, they had little else to do than come up with flag after flag after flag.

Yet another in a host of poor decisions by those involved.

[pope-guilty.livejournal.com]

If they flew another flag, it wouldn't get people angry at them and allow them to feel all persecuted and superior.

[goblinpaladin.livejournal.com]

I never tire of you having this fight with people.

[atlasimpure.livejournal.com]

There was some State's Rights bits in there as well and a largely more "at the time" racist North but yeah, in the end it's boiled down to screw blackie.