(no subject)

[theweaselking]

USSC, 5-4 divided strictly between the Fact-Based Justices and the Faith-Based Justices, rules that you no longer have the right to have your lawyer present while you are interrogated by the police.

Comments

[ed-dirt.livejournal.com]

any person that gives up the right to remain silent in front of the cops before that person can get a lawyer present almost deserves what they get.

mum's da woid.

[anivair.livejournal.com]

Also, the police can't really make you talk. I'm not sure that I really get the full implication here. You still have a right to an attorney. So if you refuse to undergo interrogation, does this just mean that you can be held? I guess I'm just not clear on how this translates from theory to practice.

[kierthos.livejournal.com]

Before this decision, if a suspect said "I want a lawyer", the cops had to stop questioning him IMMEDIATELY.

Now, they can let the suspect call a lawyer (or call one for him), but they can continue to question the suspect until the lawyer arrives. The suspect is under no additional burden to speak to the police because of this ruling.

[ed-dirt.livejournal.com]

Yeah, basically there is a time limit (three or four days i think) to how long the cops can hold you as a suspect before they have to actually charge you or let you go. It might be longer. The thing is...


AND THIS IS AS IMPORTANT AS ANYTHING YOU WILL EVER NEED TO KNOW IF ARRESTED

There is nothing in the Constitution, or anywhere else that says the cops have to tell you the truth during their investigation.

They will tell you that unless you cooperate and answer questions that they have the legal right to hold you for up to six months without charges, that your buddy in the next room already confessed only he told them YOU did all the really bad stuff, they will tell you that if you don't plead guilty and get convicted anyway that you'll get 25-life and on and on.

That's why you need a lawyer there. He/she will tell you when the cops are lying and he/she will make sure you don't say anything that can get you in trouble.

which is why cops hate it when you get your lawyer in the room.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

You'd be amazed (well, actually, *you* probably wouldn't) at how hard they can make it to avoid talking.

[ed-dirt.livejournal.com]

I never tolt em nuttin'.

[ed-dirt.livejournal.com]

yeah, they're slippery bastards, but all you gotta remember is that you have the right to not talk to them.

oh, and for the record, it's a really dangerous idea to think that having a Public Defender in the room with you is the same as having your own attorney.

[kierthos.livejournal.com]

Yeah, your typical Public Defender either loses or pleads out, what, three-quarters of their cases?

[ed-dirt.livejournal.com]

The best way to think of a Public Defender is as someone who will help you plead guilty. They aren't much good for fighting in court, but if you keep that in mind they can help you get the best bargain in a guilty plea.

[kafziel.livejournal.com]

Speaking as someone who actually spent the last four months working as a Public Defender, that's really disgustingly ignorant.

[ed-dirt.livejournal.com]

speaking as someone who has been defended by a Public Defender in no less than 17 separate cases, no it fucking isn't.

[lafinjack.livejournal.com]

Did you keep talking? That was probably your problem.

[ed-dirt.livejournal.com]

no, I learned as a juvenile to shut the fuck up when talking to cops.

[lafinjack.livejournal.com]

What was your personal guilty/innocent ratio, and how often were they judged differently?

[kafziel.livejournal.com]

Except in as much as actual proof either way would be something to either argue with or try to minimize the impact of? Didn't matter, didn't care.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

Your typical PD also only very rarely sees someone who isn't guilty, or has long enough with them to determine this.

[kafziel.livejournal.com]

Your typical PD also doesn't give a shit whether the client is guilty. At least among the dozen or so attorneys at my office, the only thing that mattered was getting the client the best possible outcome, prioritizing walking out of the courtroom above all else.

A lot of people don't understand, when the State is looking for prison time and you talk the judge into a suspended sentence or a PBJ? That's a fucking victory. The ability to recognize a case that can't get a Not Guilty and try to mitigate it rather than pissing a judge off with a fruitless trial is a rare and invaluable thing. The nature of the work, as well, means you're going to know a lot more about the courtroom and the people in it, which state's attorneys have problems with what, and what judges do or do not like.

The attitude that all a PD is good for is a plea, or that a PD isn't as good as a "real lawyer", is just completely retarded, and the prevalence of that kind of retardation is why there's always such a struggle to get funding. It's a lot harder to get a position with the PD's office than it is to hang up a shingle somewhere, and the pay is a lot less, so the people who work there overwhelming do it because they actually give a shit about their work and their clients. You're not gonna find someone in Baltimore that's more passionate or who's going to fight harder than the chief attorney at my office, and with 18 years of trial experience at all levels of the trial system you're not likely to find someone much better.

[kjn]

And so I interspersed my screams of agony with the most lurid confessions:

"Yes! Yes! I did it! I admit everything!" (Here I emitted a horrid shriek.) "I murdered the Popes—all twelve of them at once! The blood flowed like a river! O hideous impiety! And then!" (Here I dissolved into broken blubbering.) "I dismembered them! And ate them! O foul ecclesiophagy!" (Here I threw in the cackle of the criminally insane.) "And then! And then! After letting nature take its course, I defecated on holy ground! Like a wolf staking its territorial claim! Oh! Oh! I am a monster of depravity!"

"Not that, you idiot!" roared the sergeant. "Not the Popes! What about the King? What did you do to the King?"

"Which king?" Then, thinking I was bordering dangerously on proclaiming innocence, I immediately howled with glee and pain. "There have been so many! Butchered kings by the score, I have! The Kaysor of Kushrau I poisoned! And then—I fed the poisoned meat to his hounds! They died in agony! And then I cut the canines from the canines"—(here followed demonic shrieks of ecstasy at the pun)—"and with these newfound weapons I slew the Great Mogul of Juahaca! Plunged the teeth into his throat while he slept! Gave him a dog's collar of his own!" (Lunatic laughter.) "And then! Oh! I murdered the Doges of the Philistine! All of them at one swoop! Crept up on them while—"

[kjn]

From Forward the Mage, by Eric Flint.

[kierthos.livejournal.com]

All this means is that the cops don't have to wait for your lawyer to be present. They cannot keep your lawyer from meeting with you once he's there, but they don't have to wait for him to get all the way from across town/his girlfriend's place/wherever before they start asking you questions.

Of course, ad ed_dirt alluded, anyone who gives up their right to remain silent BEFORE their lawyer gets there is a dumbass.

[anivair.livejournal.com]

does this effectively bring the legal system in line with TV? Because I thought they could already do this.

[kierthos.livejournal.com]

Well, TV and the movies embellish a lot of legal stuff. As an example, back when O.J. Simpson was on trial for murder, I knew a lot of people who found the coverage to be completely boring because they were used to the "Law & Order" version of criminal proceedings.

Basically, in a lot of TV shows, the "cops" ignored the concept of 'right to remain silent' because it was better drama. (As an example, one of the characters portrayed in "Law & Order: Special Victims Unit" should have been up on police brutality charges, easily a dozen or so times, for roughing up suspects to get them to talk.)

Now, I strongly suspect, even in light of this ruling, that a lot of cops are still going to hold off on questioning if a suspect asks for a lawyer. Because I can guarantee you that some judges are not going to like this decision by SCOTUS, and not like even the hint of police coercion.

[pope-guilty.livejournal.com]

I seem to recall that they can also, due to a ruling from the 80's, jerk your lawyer around and lie to him/her to delay the moment when you get a lawyer.

[publius1.livejournal.com]

Thankfully, this doesn't entirely overturn Miranda. It's a setback in defendant's rights, though. Personally, I don't see why police bureaus would WANT to have a lawyer outside the system. The lawyer would have an easy out during probable cause to claim anything said was tainted by coersion.