like, i have to wonder at the point of this comic; is it to call out the erasure of rape, or is it just another guy who's never been a victim of rape or sexual assault using it as a part of a shocking, "edgy" joke?
as it is, i'm leaning toward the latter, since someone who wanted to do the former would probably have taken into consideration that victims or survivors of rape may wind up viewing the comic and taken that into consideration the way that would make them feel. and that obviously isn't what happened here.
I'm not trying to shove anything down your throat. You're being deliberately offensive and nasty, and I'm not. Full stop.
Notice how I've refrained from telling you to fuck off? It's a shame you seem to be unable to display the same courtesy to those who disagree with you.
Please lose the NSFW icons when you're posting in my journal on something that isn't tagged NSFW. I try, as a matter of common courtesy, to keep the work-safe and not-work-safe posts separate.
Anything that a person walking by your desk and glancing over your would see is "a comic". And if you can browse comics and pictures and things at work, then yes, this is safe. Ditto text - "wall o' text" is almost always work-safe, regardless of the actual content.
But pictures? Those get processed a hell of a lot faster than text, and so violent and sexual images, especially animated ones, are generally, uh, bad for your future job prospects in the one-second glances.
The point might be to highlight the pretense at happy families that can get played once people have said sorry, which of course makes it allll ok. This was what I got out of it, especially from the strained smiles in the 3rd last panel and from walking into the brick wall that was the 2nd...
Agreed, coming from a survivor of sexual-assault-by-a-relative.
Furthermore, just as it's another survivor's (or anyone's) right to be offended by this comic, it's my right as a survivor to laugh at it. I'm so frigging tired of being told the "proper" way to deal with what happened to me. We all deal with it in our own way. Mine is to laugh at rape jokes. No one is right or wrong.
Why do people jump right to the assumption that someone is trying to make a quick shock-value joke off rape when something like this comes up? Do they know whether the artist has been sexually assaulted, or loved ones of his/hers have been? Perhaps this comic is for them, to help them deal.
Talking about rape and surviving sexual abuse shouldn't be silenced out of fear of offending someone. It needs to be talked about, not tucked away in a dry lifeless study where no one will see it.
If an artist gains some vague obscure 'edgy factor' from it or not, so be it. I'd rather see that happen than the topic getting hushed up or some other chilling effect on talking about it in any format.
i understand - even not being a survivor, that 2nd to last frame was like being punched in the gut. I was just suggesting a third, possibly more responsible, interpretation.
So am I, darling. And I'm counting my violent rape by a stranger as quite separate from the incestuous abuse that I, and other female members of my family, went through at the hands of dear old Uncle Joe.
And, actually, since "we" are apparently a monolithic group, then I can definitively say that the comic made "us" feel good. I look at Clarissa and I wish that I, or anyone else in the family, had had the guts to do what she did a long time ago. It would've saved a lot of grief.
You seem to be under the impression that i was speaking for anyone but myself.
I wasn't.
I'm obviously not the only person who feels this way. Just because some victims/survivors of rape enjoyed it doesn't mean the feelings of those who were bothered by it become irrelevant.
Like i said, i think that the longer one i linked to below is good. this one struck me as a glib rape joke that made me feel sick when i read it. Now that i have the context linked to below, my perspective has changed a little, but it still botheres me. That is how i feel, and i am not saying you have to feel the same.
I never said a thing about plural possessives. Putting the "they" in quotation marks was an indication of just how fucking stupid it was to talk about "the way [this comic] would make them feel" because there is no monolithic "they". There are at least two people here, in this thread, who went through sexual abuse at the hands of a family member who liked this comic, a lot.
Or, to put it another way: While I have no problem at all with the fact that shemale was offended by this comic--I find it quite understandable actually, though I do not share the offense--I do have a problem with the fact that s/he expressed that offense by saying that the comic was offensive, not to hir personally, but to people who have been raped. It's patently untrue and I resent being used as a justification for someone else's offense.
S/he said in another thread that s/he was only trying to express how s/he feels, and not to tell anyone else how to feel--but if that's the case, then s/he would have done far better to not present the offense as being caused by being a member of the same godawful "club" that opaqueplanet and I belong to.
So i mispoke and didn't include a "some" before "rape survivors."
I don't think that i would've had the same visceral reaction if i hadn't been fucked without my consent by someone i shared a home with and thought i could trust. So it would also be misspeaking to imply that has nothing to do with it.
I'm so tired of hearing that moronic argument: "you haven't experienced X, so you don't know anything about it and should hence not make fun of it." Let me tell you something: the sheer horror of a particular situation will not stop me from saying what I want to say; otherwise I would be letting that situation get into my daily life and be even worse and more powerful and debilitating than it already is. Let catharsis do its thing.
Because knowing and experiencing are separate and different concepts; you can experience (or be affected by) something without knowing anything about it, and you can know all about something without experiencing it. This is obvious by the mere definitions of these concepts, hence the "moronic" adjective.
Won't you please explain why that is a "moronic" argument?
Personally, three reasons jump out.
1) Because the initial statement of that argument assumes that you have perfect knowledge of the person who posted said joke / satire / jab at flawed structure / behavior. If you do not know, definitively without a shadow of the doubt that the person posting said thing is not a survivor, then you really don't have a position to say 'you haven't experienced it'.
2) Where, exactly, do you draw the line on 'experience'? Let's assume for a moment that I'm a male who has never in my lifetime been in a position where someone has taken sexual advantage of me personally (a reasonable assumption by most barometers). Now, what if we further assume that someone that I know and love has been in that position, and I was aware of it, and it's aftermath and was there for her as she put herself back together as best she could. Would you say I experienced it? No. Would you say that I was a witness firsthand to what it did to her, how it changed her, and that the person who came out the other side was not the person she was before? Yes. To tell someone in that context 'You don't know anything about it' is a stupid statement, a moronic statement and one that shouldn't need rebuttal. I also doubt that you would accept that argument being used in your direction in any other context.
3) Even someone who has never had even second-hand exposure to this type of thing can know that such a thing is wrong. A person does not need to have been raped to know rape is wrong, a person needs not have a friend who was silenced under pressures of those who 'loved' them and should have protected them to know that hiding the abuse of a loved one because Daddy says he's sorry is wrong.
I cant be bothered going through the archives but he deals with the punchline of this comic in a much more nuanced manner in a bit part series. His normal stuff annoys the shit out of me though.
see, that one is good, because it does call out silence about rape and doesn't come off as like a flippant punchline to a joke; the one in this post, though, still makes me feel like i've been punched in the stomach.
My thought precisely! I think that's meant to be a poke at the way society blames victims though, especially rape victims...I mean, obviously it is. Duh.
I don't know enough about the author to figure this was perpetuating rape culture or parodying it. Either way it isn't funny and makes me want to throw up. As a piece of thought provoking art in the right context, it's strong. I liked the follow up series though. You don't bother with content warnings other than nsfw, but I would definately use a cut and a rape trigger warning. You don't know how much something like this can fuck up your day unless something like this has fucked up your day.
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(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-26 10:51 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-26 10:56 pm (UTC)Also, goddamn.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-26 11:40 pm (UTC)like, i have to wonder at the point of this comic; is it to call out the erasure of rape, or is it just another guy who's never been a victim of rape or sexual assault using it as a part of a shocking, "edgy" joke?
as it is, i'm leaning toward the latter, since someone who wanted to do the former would probably have taken into consideration that victims or survivors of rape may wind up viewing the comic and taken that into consideration the way that would make them feel. and that obviously isn't what happened here.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 03:42 am (UTC)I'm glad you said this.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 09:32 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 11:49 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 06:19 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 06:52 pm (UTC)Since, you know, we are a monolithic group here in Texas, and all.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 07:40 pm (UTC)Notice how I've refrained from telling you to fuck off? It's a shame you seem to be unable to display the same courtesy to those who disagree with you.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-28 04:08 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-28 04:57 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-28 05:03 am (UTC)But pictures? Those get processed a hell of a lot faster than text, and so violent and sexual images, especially animated ones, are generally, uh, bad for your future job prospects in the one-second glances.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 03:53 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 04:19 am (UTC)Furthermore, just as it's another survivor's (or anyone's) right to be offended by this comic, it's my right as a survivor to laugh at it. I'm so frigging tired of being told the "proper" way to deal with what happened to me. We all deal with it in our own way. Mine is to laugh at rape jokes. No one is right or wrong.
Why do people jump right to the assumption that someone is trying to make a quick shock-value joke off rape when something like this comes up? Do they know whether the artist has been sexually assaulted, or loved ones of his/hers have been? Perhaps this comic is for them, to help them deal.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 06:31 am (UTC)Talking about rape and surviving sexual abuse shouldn't be silenced out of fear of offending someone. It needs to be talked about, not tucked away in a dry lifeless study where no one will see it.
If an artist gains some vague obscure 'edgy factor' from it or not, so be it. I'd rather see that happen than the topic getting hushed up or some other chilling effect on talking about it in any format.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 12:00 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 05:07 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 05:27 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 05:28 pm (UTC)is it like the state of rape or something
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 05:45 pm (UTC)Would you prefer if I asked how victims of violence feel about comics that make jokes about violence?
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 08:30 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 06:10 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 07:36 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 11:43 am (UTC)Fuck off.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 06:50 pm (UTC)I thought the comic was funny.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 06:53 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 07:08 pm (UTC)I wasn't.
I'm obviously not the only person who feels this way. Just because some victims/survivors of rape enjoyed it doesn't mean the feelings of those who were bothered by it become irrelevant.
Like i said, i think that the longer one i linked to below is good. this one struck me as a glib rape joke that made me feel sick when i read it. Now that i have the context linked to below, my perspective has changed a little, but it still botheres me. That is how i feel, and i am not saying you have to feel the same.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 11:49 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 06:58 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 07:14 pm (UTC)S/he said in another thread that s/he was only trying to express how s/he feels, and not to tell anyone else how to feel--but if that's the case, then s/he would have done far better to not present the offense as being caused by being a member of the same godawful "club" that
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 07:49 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 07:51 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 08:02 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-28 05:06 am (UTC)So i mispoke and didn't include a "some" before "rape survivors."
I don't think that i would've had the same visceral reaction if i hadn't been fucked without my consent by someone i shared a home with and thought i could trust. So it would also be misspeaking to imply that has nothing to do with it.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-28 01:41 am (UTC)I'm so tired of hearing that moronic argument: "you haven't experienced X, so you don't know anything about it and should hence not make fun of it." Let me tell you something: the sheer horror of a particular situation will not stop me from saying what I want to say; otherwise I would be letting that situation get into my daily life and be even worse and more powerful and debilitating than it already is. Let catharsis do its thing.
-- ank
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-28 05:14 am (UTC)Won't you please explain why that is a "moronic" argument?
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-30 01:30 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-30 03:30 am (UTC)Personally, three reasons jump out.
1) Because the initial statement of that argument assumes that you have perfect knowledge of the person who posted said joke / satire / jab at flawed structure / behavior. If you do not know, definitively without a shadow of the doubt that the person posting said thing is not a survivor, then you really don't have a position to say 'you haven't experienced it'.
2) Where, exactly, do you draw the line on 'experience'? Let's assume for a moment that I'm a male who has never in my lifetime been in a position where someone has taken sexual advantage of me personally (a reasonable assumption by most barometers). Now, what if we further assume that someone that I know and love has been in that position, and I was aware of it, and it's aftermath and was there for her as she put herself back together as best she could. Would you say I experienced it? No. Would you say that I was a witness firsthand to what it did to her, how it changed her, and that the person who came out the other side was not the person she was before? Yes. To tell someone in that context 'You don't know anything about it' is a stupid statement, a moronic statement and one that shouldn't need rebuttal. I also doubt that you would accept that argument being used in your direction in any other context.
3) Even someone who has never had even second-hand exposure to this type of thing can know that such a thing is wrong. A person does not need to have been raped to know rape is wrong, a person needs not have a friend who was silenced under pressures of those who 'loved' them and should have protected them to know that hiding the abuse of a loved one because Daddy says he's sorry is wrong.
Experience != Sole Source of Knowledge.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 12:40 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 12:58 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 11:58 am (UTC)see, that one is good, because it does call out silence about rape and doesn't come off as like a flippant punchline to a joke; the one in this post, though, still makes me feel like i've been punched in the stomach.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 01:25 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 03:33 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 05:05 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 06:10 am (UTC)wow
Date: 2009-11-27 08:25 am (UTC)Re: wow
Date: 2009-11-27 05:58 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-11-27 04:24 pm (UTC)everything is fine here bunnies and rainbows lalalalala
Date: 2009-12-02 08:11 pm (UTC)