A thought.

Mar. 28th, 2010 04:42 pm
theweaselking: (Default)
[personal profile] theweaselking
A really, truly epic villain is the kind of person who thinks "I must kill you, but you're WRONG! I must explain WHY you are wrong FIRST."

/For consideration: Assassin's Creed.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-28 08:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ursulav.livejournal.com
Thank god I have no desire to kill people most of the time, or I'd totally be that person.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-28 09:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lafinjack.livejournal.com
I couldn't get past the pre-fight with de Sable, but I'm assuming you're talking about al Mualim. He's definitely a murdertalker.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-28 09:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theweaselking.livejournal.com
First: They all are. When you kill a quest target, you get a nice long conversation with them.

Second: Yeah, he's pretty blatantly a villain, and then he stops to monologue... REPEATEDLY.

Like, there's multiple cutscenes during the fight where he stops to explain things.

If AC2's DRM wasn't completely fucking idiotic, I'd buy it right now. Since it's completely idiotic, I'm strongly considering pirating it, right now. Dear UBI: I would love to give you money if you didn't seem to assume that me giving you money was the same as me wanting you to destroy my computer. Dumbasses.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-28 09:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lafinjack.livejournal.com
When you kill a quest target, you get a nice long conversation with them.

That's the funniest part. A couple times you kill a mark and then you have this long conversation with him... yet there are apparently a dozen pissed off guards surrounding the two of you letting you chat about the grand conspiracy. I guess it's during this part that they magically notify every guard in the city of your exact description so they can try and nab you.

Bioshock's mess of a DRM scheme got me to actually return the game - luckily I hadn't opened the box yet, so instead I downloaded it. Didn't finish that one either, now that I think about it...

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-28 11:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dominitus.livejournal.com
RE: Bioshock - buy through Steam, no DRM issues. You do have to put up with Windows Live, but it's a small price to pay for playing it on a PC.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 05:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lafinjack.livejournal.com
That's not the point. Wossname... principalities, you know.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 05:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dominitus.livejournal.com
Ah, I see. Fair enough.

It's most often the distributor that decides to slap DRM all over a game, not the developer - so often I'm inclined to be a bit sympathetic. In Bioshock's case though they were one and the same.

For some reason (probably because I'm playing it at the moment) I thought you were talking about Bioshock 2, but you meant the original. I played Bioshock on the 360 so I managed to skip all the DRM crap, and both Bioshock and Bioshock 2 on Steam don't have DRM (outside of Steam's own validation and Bioshock 2's use of Windows Live). I realise now I got a bit lucky. :P

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 05:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kafziel.livejournal.com
Retail Bioshock requires online activation and installation of rights-monitoring software, and ties the game to a non-transferable account, making resale impossible. Steam ... requires online activation and installation of rights-monitoring software, and ties the game to a non-transferable account, making resale impossible.

Bundling a chat client with your DRM suite is not a qualitative difference.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 05:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dominitus.livejournal.com
Yes, I suppose not playing any games whatsoever IS a viable option...

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 10:16 am (UTC)
maelorin: (abandoned rational thought)
From: [personal profile] maelorin
it is, yes.

your life won't end because you're not playing, or have never played, bioshock or assassin's creed.

just saying ;)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 11:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theweaselking.livejournal.com
Yes, or only playing games without intrusive DRM, or only playing games where the DRM has been cracked and neutered whether you paid for them or not.

Endless DRMless unending

Date: 2010-03-29 02:06 pm (UTC)
frith: (peacock)
From: [personal profile] frith
Like, like: The Endless Forest!! You are a notdeer! You wander the woods! You cast spells! And it's freeee! *rainbow*

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 11:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theweaselking.livejournal.com
The main difference is that Steam *goes away* when you close it and doesn't interfere with the machine when it's not running.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-04-03 11:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] atlasimpure.livejournal.com
Which is amusing to me, seeing as Steam used to be the bench-mark by which invasive DRM was measured. "Ah, it's only a razor- blade rimjob, that's like a 2.4 on the Steam scale."

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-28 10:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jaundicedaye.livejournal.com
Reminds me of a wonderful game Cheapass Games made called, "Before I Kill You Mr. Bond" (Before they were forced to change the name)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-28 10:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theweaselking.livejournal.com
Would that be Kill Dr Lucky? Or something different?

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-28 10:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jaundicedaye.livejournal.com
It is now, "Before I Kill You Famous Spy"

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-28 10:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jaundicedaye.livejournal.com
Sample: "Before I kill you Mr. Bond, "Does this dress make me look fat?"

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 04:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dgg.livejournal.com
“Before I kill you Famous Spy, I will strap you into this machine that I invented and activate it so that it slowly dips you into this pool of piranhas. I will not stick around to watch, as I have other evil things to do so you have plenty of time to look for a loophole in the machine or use one of your fancy hidden spy gadgets to escape.”

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 05:52 pm (UTC)
ext_22548: (Default)
From: [identity profile] cmattg.livejournal.com
I feel obliged to point out that Goldfinger was going to stand there and watch Bond be bisected. However, this allowed Bond to talk him out of going through with it.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 08:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dgg.livejournal.com
Bloefeld was weird duck as far as villains go, but then again, any villain that has a female minion named "Pussygalore" has got to be epic.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 05:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] autobotsrollout.livejournal.com
They're two different games.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-28 10:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ipslore.livejournal.com
It's even better when the villain is actually right, and the hero doesn't immediately pull out "but I'm different because I'm the Good Guy!", or dismiss it as a half-baked attempt to [distract/confuse him | rationalize/justify his Evil Deeds].

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 12:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pope-guilty.livejournal.com
Oh, Kreia.

Hmm...

Date: 2010-03-29 01:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com
I think I'd take this a step further: the villain who is not just convinced that he is Right, but seeks to force others to acknowledge that he is Right.

Re: Hmm...

Date: 2010-03-29 01:34 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theweaselking.livejournal.com
Could be worse. It always annoys me when the villain *actually is* right.

Re: Hmm...

Date: 2010-03-29 02:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com
That's actually why Magneto is one of my favorite villains.

Re: Hmm...

Date: 2010-03-29 11:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theweaselking.livejournal.com
See, Magneto generally *has a point*, which is not the same as *being right*. He's still a genocidal lunatic who targets the innocent either by preference or just without discrimination from the guilty, depending on who's writing him.

Re: Hmm...

Date: 2010-03-29 03:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com
I think that makes him immoral, not wrong. It's why he's a villain. In nature, when two subspecies or species compete over resources, one of them usually gets wiped out. In human context, it takes two sides to have a war but only one to have a massacre. When it's gene pool against gene pool, there are no neutral parties. That's sad, but it's a law that nature made. Sentient species may decline to activate it, but once active, that's how it works -- and looking at human history, we almost always choose maximum activation of that law even in the most trivial circumstances.

Magneto is just ruthlessly honest about how obnoxious Homo-whatever can be, and willing to pursue survival at all costs. I think that gives him the best villain motive ever. He's a villain because his methods are so violent and ruthless. Given his background, I can't blame him. That's how he was taught the world is supposed to work.

Re: Hmm...

Date: 2010-03-29 04:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theweaselking.livejournal.com
But the point is, Magneto does evil things for reasons we can accept are wrong, even while we understand why he does them.

That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about villains who really are *right*, in every way. They're doing the right thing for the right reasons and they're accomplishing the best possible result.

The only reason they're the "bad guys" at all is that the author says so, and sometimes occasionally even remembers to have them break character and act somewhat villainous.

Re: Hmm...

Date: 2010-03-29 04:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jaundicedaye.livejournal.com
Capt. Nemo perhaps?

Re: Hmm...

Date: 2010-03-29 04:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] torrain.livejournal.com
...I'm actually pretty sure Magneto would still be a villain if he quietly and apologetically went around murdering or sterilizing all examples of non-mutant humanity he could find.

It's not just his methods being violent and ruthless. It's what he does.

(Also, I for one manage quite nicely to be revolted by "gene pool against gene pool", even if other members of my species may happen to acttivate it. I'm sure I'm not the only one.)

Re: Hmm...

Date: 2010-03-29 07:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theweaselking.livejournal.com
In human context, it takes two sides to have a war but only one to have a massacre. When it's gene pool against gene pool, there are no neutral parties.

Also: I'm always amazed when people miss subtext that's so near to the surface that it sometimes shows clear through to the text.

Hint: Who are "mutants"?

Re: Hmm...

Date: 2010-03-29 04:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dgg.livejournal.com
Magneto may have a point, but what really sets him apart is because we empathize with him on some level.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 10:17 am (UTC)
maelorin: (introduction)
From: [personal profile] maelorin
exposition. it's all the rage.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 11:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] torrain.livejournal.com
I know absolutely no-one at all ever who I would ever suspect of having such tendencies.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 04:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dgg.livejournal.com
The type of Epic villain I love is the “There is a very good reason why I am doing this!” type.

I like throwing this to my RPG group all the time. My last villain was a Warlock that was trapped in this extra dimensional prison. Our heroes found themselves trapped too and were desperately trying to find a way to escape. The villain was preventing our heroes from escaping because (so our heroes thought) he was crazy and well…he’s the villain. But just as the heroes finally solved the puzzle on how to escape the villain finally revealed that the reason he was trying to stop them was because if they escape, they break the prison seal and every single horror trapped in this dimension would escape to the real world. This caused a good twenty minute debate over what to do.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 04:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theweaselking.livejournal.com
Heh. The way our DM ran that, there was nothing alive *left* in the prison by the time we got to the boss, because it was absolutely impossible to avoid any encounters or to have any non-combat Encounters.

(I really didn't like Pyramid Of Shadows. It wasn't a great adventure to begin with, and then it *really* started sucking by being run poorly.)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 04:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dgg.livejournal.com

I thought you avoided DnD 4th like the plague? Pyramid of Shadows is the worst of the Heroic Tier series in my opinion. I really don’t like whisking players away without a means to rest/sell their treasure and the encounters were very linear.

I’m running P1 now (King of the Trollhaunt Warrens) and lately I’ve been throwing skill challenges as part of the encounter. IE “Kill all the monsters, you get XP BUT if you kill all the monsters before any of them kill the innocent human bystander with 1 HP, you get a bonus!”

So far it’s been working out nicely.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 04:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theweaselking.livejournal.com
No, I can't stand D20. I like 4E - it's a decent system for dungeon crawling and doesn't get in the way of roleplaying the way D20 did.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 04:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dgg.livejournal.com
I’m rather enjoying the system myself, but I have a feeling my group is split in terms of what they want out of the game. Some of my players love to RP while others are only happy reducing everything to math and probability.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 05:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theweaselking.livejournal.com
And, hey, 4E allows both, unlike D20.

The only "catch" is that there are certain characters who are basically inappropriate PCs in 4: Non-adventurers. All 4E PCs are competent and heroic adventurers, just like all PCs in a Vampire game are vampires.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 05:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dgg.livejournal.com
Yeah we had this problem with one player in the group. He has a habit of creating characters that tries to do a little bit of everything but sucks at all. Because of him, everyone has agreed that the new Hybrid characters (PHB3) should not be allowed in our games.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 06:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theweaselking.livejournal.com
Heh. It's *possible* to build a bad character, and easier with a Hybrid, but even a "bad" character really mostly comes out to "underperforming". In order to be truly useless you have to work hard to put your stats in the wrong places (like a Strength 8 Fighter) or to work *against* your class features (Swordmage who uses a Maul).

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 08:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dgg.livejournal.com
I find the "underperforming" problem becomes more transparent at higher levels, as was the case with my player who created a Dragonborn Cleric who tried to do a little bit of everything. Not only did he routinely missed with his powers, but ended up having to save his heals for himself.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 08:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theweaselking.livejournal.com
There Are Feats For That.

(More seriously: Without knowing what he did, I can't tell you why he was underperforming - but it's *truly hard* to make a Cleric who doesn't annihilate at least one Encounter a day all on his own with a Daily. Cleric Dailies are simply unbelievably good.)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 08:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dgg.livejournal.com
Same can be said for most classes really. One well-timed daily and the whole group can run roughshod over an entire encounter but I read somewhere that at Paragon level encounters aren't necessarily more difficult but more tedious as they drain the players resources more. So if a cleric smokes the first of the day encounter with his daily, he'll find the next few encounters challenging until they all decide to take a rest.

A fact the resident Rogue discovered when he smoked all his dailies on the first encounter and started immediately whining that the group should take an extended rest.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-29 08:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theweaselking.livejournal.com
Any encounter can be made easy by judicious application of Dailies, and by L15, every character has 3 of their choice.

But Cleric Dailies are usually a cut above - a Fighter or Ranger daily will clobber one guy. A Cleric Daily clobbers *everyone*, or saves the lives of everyone in the Encounter repeatedly, or nerfs a Solo - without needing to hit.

Cleric Dailies are awesome. Only Wizard dailies are more awesome, and Wizards have a bad habit of either needing to hit or leaving the enemies *intact* and able to fight back while they kill 'em.

Anyway. Something else I've noticed about D&D4: It's very hard to make a bad character, but there are almost always ways to do the same thing *differently*, if not always *better* - and one of those different ways will better complement your group.


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