Oh I'd missed that thank you. I'm forwarding it to a friend who feels that D&D is the worst system ever because it doesn't have pages upon pages upon pages of rules detailing out social interaction.
I've had several long and detailed discussions with him about this and the best I cam come up with is, he hates every RPG because more page space is devoted to combat than social interaction. The only one he ever said he liked was Talislanta.
As well as a lot of social mechanics, one of the neater features of the game is the self-image modifier. If your character acts out of character, there's a feedback loop, because the character feels bad about him/her self.
...Okay, first time I read this, I thought it was Wizards ribbing itself because 4e is so much more a tactical game than a "roleplaying" game, but reading it again more closely, that is hilarious.
It's much more a tactical game than an RPG, but 4e is the first version of D&D to not actively get in the way of and hamper, hinder, and prevent roleplaying.
Previous versions of the game were absolutely terrible. 4E is the first one to have non-stupid mechanics *and* not actively get in the way of non-mechanical actions.
And this pissed of a metric shitload of grognard assholes.
I love the people who talk shit about D4 being not really D&D because it's just a set of combat rules, especially when the version they champion is AD&D.
4th ed is a vastly different style of system than AD&D that encourages a vastly different style of play. Are you saying the games are practically the same? Or are you just saying you don't strongly prefer one over the other?
I'm saying that "D&D is a set of combat rules with some occasional rules for non-combat stuff" has been true of every edition since it was called Chainmail.
Honestly, the longest running D&D game I was in was 2nd edition AD&D, and outside of combat, we pretty much ignored 'social interaction' rules. (Well, except for fear checks. But that usually signaled the start of combat.)
I am jealous :) Actually, no I am not, I am dumping my 2yo on his grandparents and going partying. But on any given weekend, ropelaying would be good - managing about 1 / month at the moment.
More the "we dropped the counterproductive shit from the game *for a reason*, stop being dumbasses and insisting that we reinstate the backwards-ass counterproductive shit that we cut from the game because this isn't 1983 any more" approach.
Seriously. 4E is the first "Dungeons and Dragons" game to have design decisions made after 1980. And a ton of them are specifically "using the same terms but breaking the previous design decisions in non-obvious ways because Gygax was a counterproductive idiot and people who are bad at math will never know the difference between his terrible 1970s mechanics and the current non-stupid mechanics".
There's a fairly heavy maths discussion on how 4th ed doesn't really do very well.
What specifically are you saying they dropped that was counter productive? I played 3.5 for 2 years, 4th for a year and just finished a year of AD&D. The most recent one has been the most fun for me, and far more interactive and role play-ish than the other systems
Going "We're going to get rid of most of the non-combat interaction rules" is a valid design decision, it's one way to do a roleplaying game.
What I detest is the "And everything else which has rules for this kind of stuff is wrong" attitude that is shown by yourself, large numbers of other D&D 4E fans, and by that image, by Wizards itself.
Which reminds me - the new edition of WFRP is actually very good. We're playing it at the moment and the combat works better than 4e in my opinion, and the world is good fun.
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Date: 2010-06-17 11:08 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2010-06-18 06:41 am (UTC)(chuckles)
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Date: 2010-06-18 07:00 am (UTC)As well as a lot of social mechanics, one of the neater features of the game is the self-image modifier. If your character acts out of character, there's a feedback loop, because the character feels bad about him/her self.
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Date: 2010-06-17 11:49 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-18 03:55 am (UTC)Previous versions of the game were absolutely terrible. 4E is the first one to have non-stupid mechanics *and* not actively get in the way of non-mechanical actions.
And this pissed of a metric shitload of grognard assholes.
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Date: 2010-06-18 12:11 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-18 01:59 am (UTC)4th ed is a vastly different style of system than AD&D that encourages a vastly different style of play.
Are you saying the games are practically the same? Or are you just saying you don't strongly prefer one over the other?
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Date: 2010-06-18 02:08 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2010-06-18 04:04 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2010-06-18 02:26 am (UTC)Guess what MY plans are this Saturday night!
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Date: 2010-06-18 04:37 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2010-06-18 02:24 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-18 04:09 am (UTC)Seriously. 4E is the first "Dungeons and Dragons" game to have design decisions made after 1980. And a ton of them are specifically "using the same terms but breaking the previous design decisions in non-obvious ways because Gygax was a counterproductive idiot and people who are bad at math will never know the difference between his terrible 1970s mechanics and the current non-stupid mechanics".
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Date: 2010-06-18 10:38 am (UTC)There's a fairly heavy maths discussion on how 4th ed doesn't really do very well.
What specifically are you saying they dropped that was counter productive? I played 3.5 for 2 years, 4th for a year and just finished a year of AD&D. The most recent one has been the most fun for me, and far more interactive and role play-ish than the other systems
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Date: 2010-06-18 12:38 pm (UTC)What I detest is the "And everything else which has rules for this kind of stuff is wrong" attitude that is shown by yourself, large numbers of other D&D 4E fans, and by that image, by Wizards itself.
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