Yet more reason that giving to The Salvation Army is stupid.

[theweaselking]

"The Salvation Army says it refuses to distribute Harry Potter and Twilight toys collected for needy children because they're incompatible with the charity's Christian beliefs.

The policy has alarmed a Calgarian who volunteered to sift through a southeast warehouse full of unused, donated items and was alarmed when he was told by Salvation Army officials that the two kinds of toys are "disposed of" and not given to other charities.

"I asked if these toys went to another charitable organizations but was told no, that by passing these toys on to another agency for distribution would be supporting these toys,"

"I was told to withhold a six-inch Harry Potter figure, but when I picked up a plastic M-16, I was told, 'That's for the 10-year-olds,'" he said.

The Sally Ann refuses to distribute the Twilight and Harry Potter toys because of their wizardry, vampire and werewolf content, said Capt. Pam Goodyear.

"The Salvation Army is based on Christian principles, so these things are not in line with those," said Goodyear.

Comments

[rev-ursa.livejournal.com]

But an M-16 is.

Oy. Makes me glad I'm Jewish. At leat the worst of our stupidity is overseas.

[anktastic.livejournal.com]

I was raised Jewish. The best thing about judaism is that it's very easy to get out of :D ... Just move as far away from your idishe momme as you can, and you'll be fine.

[scixual.livejournal.com]

The S.A. has put out a statement denying that this is policy ... but even if so, having one particular center do it is despicable.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

The SA's official policy for decades, however, has been one of religious and sexual employment discrimination. They *used* to be whites-only, but racial discrimination stopped getting exemption-on-the-grounds-of-religion. Now they're still whites-mostly, because they simply refuse to hire anyone who is the wrong colourflavour of Baptist.

[scixual.livejournal.com]

Yep. They suck on so many levels. Good Santa-based image, though.

[kittikattie.livejournal.com]

People ask why I don't donate to them.


...THIS IS WHY.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

I always answered "because they discriminate on religious and sexual grounds, and the only reason they stopped openly discriminating on racial grounds was that they lost the loophole in the law that let them keep doing it... openly".

This, right here, is ANOTHER reason to not support them.

(The Canadian Diabetes Association gets pretty much all of our "This is still good but we don't want it and it's not worth selling on eBay" stuff. They turn around and resell the donations, in bulk, to the Value Village chain of stores - but that's okay with me, and the CDA does work I can respect with the profit they make in the process.)

[doom-diva.livejournal.com]

My husband's family actually belongs to SA, the religion, and hubby was baptized into it. (Ron never practiced it though and refused to go to church as a kid.) His uncle, who has the same name and did the baptizing, is now retired but was a pretty high-ranking member (Major Reverend I think) and his wife was also in it (now retired as well).

Just like the military Army, SA paid for everything he and his family of five kids needed, be it pay, allowance or whatnot, including a van and large home. They picked up and moved every couple of years into nice neighborhoods. SA also paid for their vacations to the campgrounds they run in exchange for taking care of things. At the campground, Ron said all kinds of families were there.

SA helps poor people, and they take care of their own very well. I know it's not the popular thing to say, especially among my Pagan brethren, but I support them and will continue to do so. People still shop at big box stores like Wally World, even though they have a pretty bad track record all across the board. They way I see it, at least SA is helping people.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

The Salvation Army helps poor people only if those poor people are white, straight, and one specific brand of illiterate. If you're not those three things, the SA actively and openly wants you to die.

There are other groups that help *all* poor people, not just racially, sexually, and religiously acceptable poor people. There is never, ever, any good reason to support the SA over one of the non-stupid non-bigot groups.

[doom-diva.livejournal.com]

That's not true. The one here is overwhelming supporting blacks and latinos in need, be it food, supplies, job help or shelter. Every bell ringer I've seen this year has been black, and that's par to course. Maybe the Chicagoland location division's better? I don't know. I go by my experiences, and my experiences have always been good.

Now too, if they don't want to give out Harry Potter or Twilight stuff, they don't have to. Toys for Tots will take it, which I also support. It *is* a Christian group, after all, and they can choose what to do. It's like people who don't want to support the Boy Scouts because they're not cool with Atheists and Gays. Yes, it's true, and no, they don't recognize our religion, but I still let our son join.

If supporting the Salvation Army, the Boy Scouts and shopping at Wal*Mart and Target make me a bad person or whatever, so be it.

[doom-diva.livejournal.com]

And for the record too, I fail to see what's wrong with toy guns. I never understood that. Then again, I always liked them when I was a kid, and I watched lots of "bad cartoons", too. Oh, and we played with fireworks - the good stuff. ;)

[unknownpoltroon.livejournal.com]

"Every bell ringer I've seen this year has been black, and that's par to course."

How may black folks are higher up in the organization, and not standing out in the cold ringing a damn bell as their job?

[doom-diva.livejournal.com]

I don't know, but to say there are only white Christians in SA is untrue, or only ringing bells, as I shop at their thrift stores regularly. It's also untrue to say only white Christians are the ones getting help. The people with the most need get help, whatever their identity. That was my point.

My point was also to expand that people cite racism/sexism/homophobia/what have you about the Boy Scouts, or Wal*Mart, or Target, or any of a million other big box stores, and yet these same people support them. They fill a need, and if they didn't, they'd be out of business. Supply and demand. Some people are even anti-military, but yet they cheerfully give to Toys for Tots, which is run by the Marines.

What you or anyone else chooses to support is your business, but to say people who do otherwise is somehow foolish at best, or racists themselves at worst, is pretty crappy.

I know my positions are unpopular among my community, but I stand by them. I know for a fact people in need (here, and not in some far away country) get help from SA more than any other organization. It can be help directly or through their leads and referrals to many other charities, and that's good enough for me to continue to support them... even if I do indeed disagree with some of their beliefs and practices.

I also support Catholic Charities, because they too offer a lot of help to people right here in my back yard. And yes, that's even though a lot of Pagans really dislike the Church for a myriad of reasons, and because feminists dislike the charity because they are against abortion. I do NOT support charities where the bulk of their giving is in some faraway land, because I firmly believe in Me and Mine First. Sure, I gave a bit to the Haiti relief fund, and to the tsunami, and to Katrina, because I hate to hear about people getting kicked when they're down. But the bulk of my giving goes locally.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

My point was also to expand that people cite racism/sexism/homophobia/what have you about the Boy Scouts, or Wal*Mart, or Target, or any of a million other big box stores, and yet these same people support them.

If by "these same people", you mean YOU, then yes.

Believe it or not, "I'm not racist, I just pay other people to be racist on my behalf!" is not a laudable position, and there are people who aren't like you, and thus who choose to NOT do this.

In the mean time,
What you or anyone else chooses to support is your business, but to say people who do otherwise is somehow foolish at best, or racists themselves at worst, is pretty crappy.

I didn't say you were racist, sexist, and homophobic. I said the Salvation Army is all three, which is why I support *other* charities that are *not* those three things. You, on the other hand, pay the SA to do evil on your behalf.

You mentioned the BSA. Yes, you're right, they're racist, sexist, and homophobic religious bigots - and then *you pay them to keep doing it*.

Walmart is a parasitic company whose existence makes life worse for their customers, and people who shop at Walmart are actively destroying their own communities and future prospects. And you, knowing this, shop there anyway, and pay them to do it.

I also support Catholic Charities, because they too offer a lot of help to people right here in my back yard.

And in doing so, you actively, knowingly contribute to the rape of children and the coverrup of same. Not quite as much as a participating Catholic who gives money to the church directly, but you do.

And somehow, you think this is OKAY and it doesn't make you a bad person, because you disagree with all these organisations *that you knowingly, materially support*?

I do NOT support charities where the bulk of their giving is in some faraway land,

Who gives a shit? Right here, right now, you have the choice of supporting local charities that are bigoted and that do bad things, or local charities that are not bigots and that do not do bad things. And you, knowing that these charities are bad people and hurt the community, choose to support them anyway *instead* of worthwhile ones.

[torrain.livejournal.com]

But some of the charities she doesn't support try to help people who don't fall into the "Me And Mine First" category! Dude, you can't expect her to look at doing something different when doing something different is also the kind of thing that might, you know, help other people.

[doom-diva.livejournal.com]

The ones that are typically deemed worthwhile do not do a whole lot of helping, or worse, the super do-gooders are too radical for me in the opposite direction (American Cancer Society and Acorn come to mind). The big ones do the most good, even if they are kinda fucked up, so that's where my money goes. They can buy and work in bulk and specifically do not get too heavily involved in politics.

I do not apologize for where I shop, who I donate to or who I affiliate with. I look out for Me and Mine First.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

I look out for Me and Mine First.

Yes, you've said that, and in the process you've happily both endorsed *and funded* homophobia, racism, sexism, and the rape of children. Oh, and also (with Walmart, specifically) you're actively working to ensure that "You and Yours" spend your lives in poverty serving a monopolistic monarch without whom you cannot eat. But even ignoring that outlier where you work against yourself, you've made it QUITE clear that you are happy to play "fuck you all, I got mine, and I only want people like me to get help in the future"

I do not apologize for where I shop, who I donate to or who I affiliate with.

I'm not suggesting that you need to apologise, at least not to me. I'm saying you're stupid for doing it.

Stupid, specifically, because you included Walmart, who hate *you* and want *you* to suffer. Had you not included them, you'd simply be maliciously working to reinforce the suffering of people who aren't like you.

This makes you a bad person.

You should stop that.

[doom-diva.livejournal.com]

Whatev's. I guess I'm a bad person, but I'm far from living in poverty. That would mean I was living on beans and rice, wearing tattered clothes, not paying bills or even not having any money to buy gifts.

Nope, I'm far from being there. I was though - growing up. I wore tube socks for mittens, we were evicted *7* times for non-payment of rent which caused me to attend *13* schools, Santa missed our house a couple times, dinner was occasionally a loaf of bread (or nothing), yadda yadda yadda.

Nope, I won't be reliving that crap again, and that's why I donate to those charities, because they helped us from being completely destitute, thanks to their food pantries, used clothing, mom's baby doctor stuff and whatnot. (We *did* have to crash at friends' homes here and there and go "camping" once in a while, but we never stayed at a shelter.)

[torrain.livejournal.com]

They can buy and work in bulk and specifically do not get too heavily involved in politics.

Yeah, they only submit requests to be exempt from anti-discrimination legislation, and never do anything like threaten to shut down soup kitchens that feed thousands of people if they're told they have to treat spouses of employees like, you know, actual spouses of employees.

Oh. Wait.

Whoops again. Carry on. (Or maybe it has to affect you and yours to count as political involvement? Who knows?)

[doom-diva.livejournal.com]

What are you even talking about?

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

You: "They don't get involved in politics!"

Her: "Yeah, they only spend millions fighting against antidiscrimination laws, and then apply to be exempt from antidiscrimination laws, then argue that if they can't discriminate they'll just stop feeding the starving completely" (All of which, by the way, the Salvation Army, the BSA, and the Catholic Church have done)

You: "Wut"

Does that help?

[doom-diva.livejournal.com]

So what? They're PRIVATE charities and tax-exempt. They can pull up stakes if people are going to look gift horses in the mouth.

I stood in line at revival tents and crazy Baptist churches, sat through their bullshit sermons and whatnot, because at the end, they gave me a bag of groceries I needed and school supplies, vaccination shots and a haircut for our son. I tossed out the bible that was thrown in, as I didn't want or need it, and when they called me to ask me to join their church, I politely said no thanks, I had my own. But I thanked them for the gifts they gave me, which they did NOT have to do.

Let's put it this way: when I needed help, I would have gone to Westboro (the God Hates Fags people) if they were giving out food and supplies. Does that mean I like them or even respect them? Of course not! But if it meant the difference between our son starting school and having something in his lunch sack or living on principles and air for his lunch, I'd suck it up.

But I guess the way you see it, beggers can indeed be choosers. Gotcha.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

They can pull up stakes if people are going to look gift horses in the mouth.

And yet, all the way to this point, we haven't been talking about the remote insignificant fraction of money that goes to helping the needy. We've been talking about the morality of openly, deliberately, actively supporting bigoted organisations.

It's great that, when you needed help, you were able to go to someone who expended serious efforts telling you that you were going to hell and a terrible person and that white male christians were better people than you, while also helping you.

Wouldn't it have been better to *just* have gotten the help?

Shouldn't you support "just the help" people instead of "wasted bigoted nonsense and also occasionally help" people, now that you're not desperate and have a choice?

[doom-diva.livejournal.com]

That would be the ideal, but that's not realistic. Charity and no questions asked doesn't happen all that often. It's been my experience there is always an ulterior motive, even with the "good guys", because there is always an agenda or angle sooner or later. Even the Bill Gates thing, where he's getting his billionaire buddies to give up half their money, there is most definitely an angle.

Even most givers usually have a motive; tax write-off. Very few people give donations to charities that are not tax-exempt, because they aren't eligible to get a write-off themselves. And people who aren't doing it for that reason do it because it's their Christian duty, or because they feel bad they have more than others, or even just to get the panhandler to stop guilt-tripping them when they're waiting for the bus. Or, there's always the eye on job/status promotion.

Am I cynical? Yes. Am I jaded. Yes. But am I realistic. Yes.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

So, because the KKK bought your groceries once, you're an unquestioning KKK supporter forever?

Good to know.

[doom-diva.livejournal.com]

Didn't say that. I did say though I would thank them for the help. Doesn't mean we'd be best friends or even "friend" them. I'd still think they're stupid rednecks, but stupid rednecks with a bag of groceries to spare.

When someone is thirsty enough, they'll drink their own piss. When someone is hungry enough, they'll eat their own children. When someone really needs a job, they'll do like my husband did and shovel scrap steel for minimum wage via a day labor company in -30F wind chills. That doesn't mean they like doing it; that just means they're desperate and unwilling to give up. I didn't like working at the convent for two years, but they gave me a chance when no one else would. I got the office experience I needed to move up, because I could no longer physically wait tables any longer.

Again, I have no intention of going back to hardship, so I'll suck it up and shop at Wally World if that's what it takes. I'll also continue to donate to SA, because I know they have the manpower to do the most good. If they help keep another family like mine with a leg up rather than a perpetual hand out, so be it.

I'm realistic, and being realistic is far from being stupid.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

. I'll also continue to donate to SA,

Which makes you a *bad person*.

because I know they have the manpower to do the most good.

Which makes you a clueless, ignorant person.

. If they help keep another family like mine with a leg up rather than a perpetual hand out, so be it.

Ah, right, the "hand up not hand out" canard. Interesting that you ONCE AGAIN conflate "I support bigotry" with "not supporting bigotry is the same as completel ineffectual", while again reciting bigot talking points.

I'm realistic, and being realistic is far from being stupid.

Supporting the Salvation Army *is* stupid, and if you support them, you are stupid. Full stop. They're a bigoted, wasteful organisation that does less for "You and Yours" than any dozen other organisations that do more.... but that you don't support because you didn't look for them when you needed help. And in the mean time, you're paying the KKK with the money they use to purchase lumber and gasoline, and consoling yourself with the fervent hope that they won't pick any of "You and Yours" to put burn the crosses at, this time.

[doom-diva.livejournal.com]

And I obviously don't care if you or anyone else thinks I'm stupid, because otherwise, I would stop doing it. I have seen with my own eyes SA and other "bad charities/bad people" do good for a lot of people in need. They help people get jobs, even if they're crappy ones, because it's better to push a broom than to sit at home filling out apps for a job that may not come. And I too have first-hand knowledge what hand-outs do for people, and it keeps them down and needy.

When my son was born, I "got on welfare" because I needed it. My mom told me to go ahead and take it, because I would be paying taxes the rest of my life, so I may as well get it now while the gettins was good. Guess what: when the government refused to TRULY help me get out from under them, because I wanted to go to college instead of attending crappy work fairs, they got pissed off. The social worker was indignant. I told her she could find another case file, and I would figure it out myself. And I did.

I had to sacrifice A LOT, and I do not want to go back to that, but I would if I had to. I can give you the uphill, both ways stories if you want, but at least I have them.

Do I think people who live out their unemployment or collect welfare are lazy? Not all of them, if they at least get a part-time job while they're on it or go to school. But most people I know who are on extended unemployment or welfare are indeed lazy or at the very least apathetic, because they have their hands perpetually out expecting entitlements. Someone else will always be there, right? Too big to fail?

I know A LOT of people who I deem to be job snobs. It sickens me to hear/read:

"That's not my job"
"I didn't go to school to do that"
"I deserve better"
"My last job paid X more than this"
"I have to shop at Aldi now"

STFU already. Too bad. Times change. People get accustomed to living a certain way, and they expect to continue to live like that. Nope. Shit happened. Deal. I find it pathetic when rich people blow their brains out when they lose everything, because they'd rather be dead than live meagerly, digging ditches or whatever. (Madoff's kid hung himself today, speaking of which.)

If we lost everything tomorrow, we'd just get jobs bagging groceries or standing in line at the day labor place while filling out apps. It would suck, but it wouldn't be demeaning. (And, I wouldn't let them know I went to a university or anything like that, because I don't WANT people to say I'm overqualified.)

So I guess by your standards I'm stupid or even an -ist (fill in the blank), but the way I see it, the only -ist I am is a REAList. Ya gotta do whatcha gotta do.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

Wow, tangent much?

Please pay attention: Nobody is saying life isn't hard, or that accepting charity is a bad thing.

We're saying that *paying out* to bigoted organisations who use your money for bigotry is a bad thing, and that there are charities - yes, even local charities - that are NOT bigoted and destructive, and you should support those instead.

In the mean time, you've got a half-dozen paragraphs into an argument against something *nobody is saying*, and you end by calling yourself a realist? Uh, no, "realist" is reserved for "people who know what real is", and you're babbling away against figments of your own imagination. That kinda disqualifies you.

[doom-diva.livejournal.com]

What have I said, repeatedly - the little charities don't help nearly as much as the big ones, and even the little ones have a side reason, an agenda or some kind of ulterior motive. Nobody does something just because they're nice. Santa Claus doesn't exist. The little charities usually do not get my money, because they can't stretch a dollar nearly as well. That's again being realistic and using common sense.

And I do tend to go off on tangents when people believe I don't know what I'm talking about, or I "haven't been there", or I'm somehow wrong about my own opinion. And, it really angers me when I'm lumped in with being a bigot when I am not. My dad? Yeah, he made Archie Bunker blush, and he was proud of it. Me, no. Doesn't mean I disowned him based on his opinions.

Am I not allowed to have one, especially a well-formed opinion based on a lifetime of experiences, even if you disagree with it? I've never said you're stupid for pissing your money away, because I believe you can do whatever you want with it. That's what you firmly believe in, and I respect that. So why the name-calling? Is that all you have for people you disagree with?

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

And once again, you're cluelessly arguing against something *nobody is saying*.

And I do tend to go off on tangents when people believe I don't know what I'm talking about,

So you demonstrate that you know what you're talking about by talking about something completely unrelated AS IF it was relevant! Great strategy, how's that working for you?

or I "haven't been there",

Not only has nobody EXCEPT YOU brought that up, nobody cares.

or I'm somehow wrong about my own opinion

No, no, once again, please try to keep up: Nobody is telling you that your opinion is wrong. We're saying that it's *stupid* and that paying for other people to do bigoted things on your behalf is a bad thing.

it really angers me when I'm lumped in with being a bigot when I am not.

Once again, *do* try to pay attention. Nobody has called you a bigot. We've said that you *pay* bigots to *do bigoted things*, and that this is stupid.

a well-formed opinion based on a lifetime of experiences,

that happens to ignore inconvenient things like "facts".

The Klan bought you groceries when you needed it, and helped with your rent when you needed it, and all they asked was that you recite the 14 words back and accept a free copy of The Turner Diaries that you could do whatever you wanted with, even throw away. And you acepted their help because you needed help, great. Now, you've turned around and are excusing everything else the Klan does, and being a happy monetary contributor to them, because even though you disagree with their white supremacist views they helped "You And Yours" once and that makes them okay.

And you don't seem to understand why we have a problem with your fervent Klan support.

[doom-diva.livejournal.com]

SA =/= Klan. Get over yourself. Just because your opinion is as such does not make it fact. I could say Jesse Jackson is a bigot, and I could even cite sources where he has done some of the same shit the Klan does, but that too does not make it fact.

And as far as talking down to me...

Randal: I hope it feels good.

Customer: You hope what feels good?

Randal: I hope it feels so good to be right. There is nothing more exhilarating than pointing out the shortcomings of others, is there?

[kittikattie.livejournal.com]

Every bell ringer I've seen this year has been black, and that's par to course.

Why does this sound like "every slave I have seen on the plantation has been black so Thomas Jefferson really loves the Negro people"

*side eye forever*

[biomekanic.livejournal.com]

My family is Quaker/Agnostic.
Back in the early 80s, I think '82, my dad went on strike, and was out for almost 10 months.
Every week SA gave a grocery bag of food to the striker's familys, regardless of race or religion.
Mine was one of many families that still got to eat because of their generosity.

[torrain.livejournal.com]

Salary, allowance, moving expenses, trips to camp, moving expenses, vehicles, houses, moving expenses (yes, I reiterate, but you did mention every couple of years)? I must thank you for highlighting this alternate perspective on where the money goes.

I'm just gonna sit here and contemplate how you say you dislike bigots, but are perfectly happy to deliberately and openly put people who aren't part of "You and Yours" on a lower and less important level. I mean, that's absolutely not at all obtuse or narrow-minded prejudice directed towards groups you are not a part of...

Oh. Wait.

Carry on.

[doom-diva.livejournal.com]

Yes, they moved around a lot, because Ron's uncle was called to work all over the country. It's no different than military families who are regularly transferred, or any other profession that has regional directors. They're needed on-site to do physical work. It's not like it's an easy life or anything, Easy would be staying put.

I say Me and Mine -First-. My neighbors, my community, my town, my country. It's not any different than donating time to a soup kitchen *after* you made sure your family has dinner. No one can argue the state of our economy is pretty screwed up right now, so I cannot justify sending millions of donations to Somalia when people in my own neighborhood are being foreclosed upon and facing homelessness. That's not looking down on people - that's just being practical.

Where is the confusion in this? Why should I be expected to do the bulk of my grocery shopping at the local co-op, which I do visit on rare occasion for the bulk spices, when Target sells the stuff for at least half the cost? I'm not made of money. What am I supposed to do, only buy half as many groceries just so I can feel good about where my grocery money goes? That's not practical. I was there today - $12 for a whole chicken (frozen, not fresh!), $6 for a jar of mayo, $2.49/lb for roma tomatoes, $4 for a QUART of milk, which they also want a $4 deposit on the glass bottle! Uhhh... no. I'll just buy a scoop of each of a few spices and call it a day. If they can't be even remotely competitive, then they don't get my business, and they certainly won't convince me to become a member.

SA and Catholic Charities help a lot of people get on their feet. The Boy Scouts teach the kids a lot of valuable life skills and away from the gangs. Wally World and Target make it so I can afford to feed my family on more than beans and rice. And they can do it, because they pool their resources and are able to buy and work in bulk. Common sense stuff. If using common sense is EviL, then I guess I'm the Devil.

[torrain.livejournal.com]

When "people I can classify as being like me, even through a connection as tenuous as occupying the same geopolitical entity" starts being your criteria for your justifcation of how okay it is to help people you don't know and have never met[1], and that trumps details like "need" or "how much you can do", then it gets to be a bit less than common sense.

Really not sure where you're getting the idea that anyone expects you to do something different. People are just commenting on what you're doing.

Maybe this'll help: Think of it as being just like you commenting on how unreasonable it is for others to send "millions of donations" to a different country when there's economic difficulty that you personally have to look at around you.
---
[1] Donations made by other people always need justifying.

[doom-diva.livejournal.com]

Maybe this'll help: Think of it as being just like you commenting on how unreasonable it is for others to send "millions of donations" to a different country when there's economic difficulty that you personally have to look at around you.

I'm not seeing your point. I already said I don't do that. I sent a *little* to Haiti and whatnot, but the bulk of where I spend my money is where the charity is local. And, I said I do occasionally support the co-op, because it's the only one in the entire city, and I think it's a good thing, but they're not nearly competitive enough to be even remotely reasonably affordable.

Y'know, charity begins at home and all that.