Unless they live way, way out in the hinterland, these two had no excuse for not getting to a hospital. All but the most fanatical home-birthers recognise that going into labour two months early is a serious medical emergency that can't be handled at home. In an incubator, being monitored, the baby would very likely have lived. But no - it was God's will. Just like the miscarriage the year before which probably cause the premature birth.
All but the most fanatical home-birthers recognise that going into labour two months early is a serious medical emergency that can't be handled at home.
QFT. Speaking not as a religious person but as someone who supports homebirth, this was crazy. The safety of the child is always more important than anything else, which is why we prepared for a homebirth, but ended up having a C-section in a hospital when it was the best thing for our child.
While I think anyone who doesn't take a 3-pound baby to the hospital is an idiot, there isn't necessarily any relation between having a miscarriage and having a premature birth. We have a huge rate, in the US, of early miscarriage, and I think it's dangerous to start blaming pregnant women for miscarriages, stillbirths, and premature births.
Sophia8 isn't ascribing blame to the mother for the technicalities, but for the apparent failure, based on faith, to /deal with them appropriately/
when I was a very young boy - maybe 9?, I had a friend at school who was a Jehovah's Witness. He was off school for a couple of weeks and I asked our teacher what was wrong with him. She told me he was very ill, and his parents would not take him to hospital as it was against their beliefs. I was raised Protestant but thought religion, in general, nonsensical. I wrote a letter to his parents asking them to take him to hospital because I did not want my friend to suffer unnecessarily. Or at all, for that matter. I took the letter around and asked all our classmates to sign it. I gave that letter to our teacher and asked her to get it to them. She did. The next day, she told the class that his parents had taken this letter as a sign from God that they should act.
I wasn't sure whether that counted as a small miracle, myself being a vessel of the Almighty, or just his parents ceasing to be utterly fucking stupid.
Whatever, my friend recovered rapidly and returned to school. He confessed that he'd stopped believing a very long time ago, and was immensely grateful to us all for helping him out.
No, I haven't misunderstood, but I'm apparently not conveying effectively what my concerns are about some of the arguments in this case. Even though I agree that these parents are responsible for their baby's death.
You read me wrong. NO WAY am I blaming women for miscarriages and premature births - I'm a multigravida myself. However, one cause of miscarriage/premature birth is a weakened cervix. Since she never got medical attention during any of her pregnancies it's possible that this woman's cervix was damaged, either from the miscarriage or the birth of her previous child.
I'm wondering just how consistent these people are. Do they also think its God's will if their dog or their horse gets sick or injured, and just pray over them? If they crash their car, do they think it's God's will they they should stay in the wreckage and die slowly and painfully from their injuries? If their house catches fire, do they stand around, pray really really loudly and sprinkle holy oil on the flames, instead of calling the fire service? Nah, I think I know the answer. These people must really hate their kids.
I don't think they hate their kids, but I can't even imagine the mind set that allows parents to watch their child sicken and die without attempting medical care. It's just not even a viewpoint I can logic through my head because it would require a complete brain change. I can read people's reasons and understand the words, but, coming from your average American cultural and religious background, I can't truly understand how people see that position as valid.
Given that we have a presidential hopeful who thinks prayer is the answer to natural disaster, maybe they do stand around praying at the flames instead of calling fire service. I am sans clue in this matter.
I get what your issue is, and share it. "Just like the miscarriage the year before which probably cause the premature birth." definitely reads as saying one thinks having a miscarriage will cause later premature births, when there has been no causal and, to my knowledge, not even a correlational relationship shown between the events.
Natural selection isn't about whether a creature is fit to survive, except as a manifestation of how it's about whether genes are fit to be passed on. As these parents' seem not to be.
"Natural Selection" is all about, and strictly about the ability of a species' *adults* to produce young that survive into adulthood to in turn produce young, either by producing sufficient numbers, providing good genes, providing good rearing, or a combination of these strategies depending on the species. It is never about the young.
"Survival of the fittest" is a misnomer at best, a misleading mischaracterization at worst. This is why I chose the former expression rather than the latter. I strive to be very precise in my wording.
I have some sympathy for the defence's point that the case was brought a year after the child died, and only after a previous (more easily-winnable) case was won on the same grounds. That sympathy evaporates when people say stupid things like 'The government should not be allowed to intrude into "this sacred private sphere the family is entitled to"' (since when do we live in a Church state?) - and after the State passed a law saying "no, you have to see a doctor like everyone else".
To be fair, I had the impression in the artical that the law was passed after the child died. That said, no way in hell would I have denied medical care to that baby. My nephew spent three months in an incubator after being born that early and tiny.
I have mixed feelings about this. I think these people are idiots, that their stance is dangerous, and yes, they should be held legally (at the very least) responsible for not bringing a 3-pound baby to a hospital after a premature delivery. Whether that would have changed the outcome...there's no way of knowing that now.
But I also think it is a very dangerous road to tie together previous miscarriage and early birth, and to make lack of prenatal care part of a prosecution package. The US is already at war with women and has been prosecuting for murder women who have done everything responsible but still lost babies before or after birth. I think it moves us toward a situation in which women are incubators, and anyone can argue for any fuzzy reason that a woman is legally responsible for her fetus or child's death. Especially when so many women in the US cannot afford prenatal care, adequate nutrition, or medical care. Even if that wasn't the case in this particular instance.
It's bad enough, when you miscarry or lose a child, to torture yourself about what you could have done differently. To add the fear of being prosecuted if you lose your child is obscene. I miscarried some years ago. I wanted the baby very much and thought I was doing everything in my power to support it. Still...the possibility that I could have been taken to court for, say, eating Thai food with basil before I knew I was pregnant (on the grounds that basil is an abortifact and, well, I *could* have been pregnant), or doing yoga that night, or maybe just waiting 'til I was too old...that is a horrifying picture.
Yes, yes, I know this isn't exactly the same, and I repeat that I think these people are legally responsible for at least negligence. But I think the ramifications of some of the prosecutors' arguments are scarier still on a broader level.
They deliberately, knowingly, with advance planning, did something that any reasonable person would *know* will result in their child's death, and deliberately, knowingly, with advance planning, did not do any of the things that might have resulted in their child not dying.
It's not this couple, whom I think are idiots who deserve everything they get. But I think the logical extensions of some of the prosecution's arguments have dangerous ramifications.
Singingnettle is talking about some other cases that are sitting before the courts. There are states in the US where you now have to Proove yourself innocent of causing a miscarriage, because you might have done it delibratly to get around abortion laws. In one case I rememebr reading about, the woman had called a help line, desperate and scared, wanting to abort early on because she was so scared, then changed her mind. When she later miscarried because of -accidentally- falling down the stairs, the da prosecuted her for killing the baby delibratly.
The US is already at war with women and has been prosecuting for murder women who have done everything responsible but still lost babies before or after birth.
Seeing a lot of hypothetical laws that didn't pass or stand a chance of passing, and one person charged with a depraved-heart fetal homicide for heavy cocaine use in the 38th week. Where's the "has been prosecuting for murder women who have done everything responsible but still lost babies before or after birth." again?
Seeing a lot of hypothetical laws that didn't pass or stand a chance of passing
At least 38 of the 50 states across America have introduced foetal homicide laws that were intended to protect pregnant women and their unborn children from violent attacks by third parties – usually abusive male partners – but are increasingly being turned by renegade prosecutors against the women themselves.
Maybe it's just me, but laws that have been passed by well over two thirds of the states don't strike me as laws which "didn't pass or stand a chance of passing".
one person charged with a depraved-heart fetal homicide for heavy cocaine use in the 38th week
South Carolina was one of the first states to introduce such a foetal homicide law. National Advocates for Pregnant Women has found only one case of a South Carolina man who assaulted a pregnant woman having been charged under its terms, and his conviction was eventually overturned. Yet the group estimates there have been up to 300 women arrested for their actions during pregnancy.
This lists multiple victims of this charge. One is the druggie you mention, one is a woman who attempted suicide after the useless ass she got pregnant by abandoned her, (Note no mention is made of prosecuting him for being a deadbeat)One of the women is accused of doing drugs, which she denies and they cannot prove the birth defects are not downs as she was told,
*Sigh.* I don't have the time right now to post references, because I have household things I have to do; and by the time I get to it, no one will care. So forget I said anything; I will bring this up as a discussion on my own journal when I have the time and attention to think about it further and to do it justice. There's no reason why a bunch of strangers should care about my opinion on this matter, and I don't want to end up getting into a blazing argument on someone else's journal.
Almost certainly. The fanatical churchs almost all are. THey forget that God delibratly killed kids all the time in the bible, and insist that God loves All the babies.
Of course God loves all babies. He loves them so much that he snatches them away from their parents all the time so that he can hug them and kiss them and squeeze them and call them George...
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(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-12 05:59 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-12 07:03 pm (UTC)But no - it was God's will. Just like the miscarriage the year before which probably cause the premature birth.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-12 07:50 pm (UTC)QFT. Speaking not as a religious person but as someone who supports homebirth, this was crazy. The safety of the child is always more important than anything else, which is why we prepared for a homebirth, but ended up having a C-section in a hospital when it was the best thing for our child.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-13 03:26 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-16 09:05 pm (UTC)No. "Mother before baby," as an important medical-ethical dilemma can be summarised.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-12 09:09 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-13 12:38 am (UTC)Sophia8 isn't ascribing blame to the mother for the technicalities, but for the apparent failure, based on faith, to /deal with them appropriately/
when I was a very young boy - maybe 9?, I had a friend at school who was a Jehovah's Witness. He was off school for a couple of weeks and I asked our teacher what was wrong with him. She told me he was very ill, and his parents would not take him to hospital as it was against their beliefs.
I was raised Protestant but thought religion, in general, nonsensical. I wrote a letter to his parents asking them to take him to hospital because I did not want my friend to suffer unnecessarily. Or at all, for that matter. I took the letter around and asked all our classmates to sign it.
I gave that letter to our teacher and asked her to get it to them. She did. The next day, she told the class that his parents had taken this letter as a sign from God that they should act.
I wasn't sure whether that counted as a small miracle, myself being a vessel of the Almighty, or just his parents ceasing to be utterly fucking stupid.
Whatever, my friend recovered rapidly and returned to school. He confessed that he'd stopped believing a very long time ago, and was immensely grateful to us all for helping him out.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-13 01:35 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-13 02:34 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-13 03:17 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-13 07:03 am (UTC)However, one cause of miscarriage/premature birth is a weakened cervix. Since she never got medical attention during any of her pregnancies it's possible that this woman's cervix was damaged, either from the miscarriage or the birth of her previous child.
I'm wondering just how consistent these people are. Do they also think its God's will if their dog or their horse gets sick or injured, and just pray over them? If they crash their car, do they think it's God's will they they should stay in the wreckage and die slowly and painfully from their injuries? If their house catches fire, do they stand around, pray really really loudly and sprinkle holy oil on the flames, instead of calling the fire service?
Nah, I think I know the answer. These people must really hate their kids.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-13 10:21 pm (UTC)Given that we have a presidential hopeful who thinks prayer is the answer to natural disaster, maybe they do stand around praying at the flames instead of calling fire service. I am sans clue in this matter.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-20 12:36 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-12 07:13 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-13 12:53 am (UTC)ouch
...
this comment comes eerily close to suggesting that the child wasn't fit to survive. in the 'of the fittest' sense. Which is completely fucking sick.
I appreciate you probably meant it as a Zing for the parents, but your working sucks.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-13 01:49 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-13 02:34 am (UTC)"Survival of the fittest" is a misnomer at best, a misleading mischaracterization at worst. This is why I chose the former expression rather than the latter. I strive to be very precise in my wording.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-12 08:23 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-13 05:31 am (UTC)That said, no way in hell would I have denied medical care to that baby. My nephew spent three months in an incubator after being born that early and tiny.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-12 09:23 pm (UTC)But I also think it is a very dangerous road to tie together previous miscarriage and early birth, and to make lack of prenatal care part of a prosecution package. The US is already at war with women and has been prosecuting for murder women who have done everything responsible but still lost babies before or after birth. I think it moves us toward a situation in which women are incubators, and anyone can argue for any fuzzy reason that a woman is legally responsible for her fetus or child's death. Especially when so many women in the US cannot afford prenatal care, adequate nutrition, or medical care. Even if that wasn't the case in this particular instance.
It's bad enough, when you miscarry or lose a child, to torture yourself about what you could have done differently. To add the fear of being prosecuted if you lose your child is obscene. I miscarried some years ago. I wanted the baby very much and thought I was doing everything in my power to support it. Still...the possibility that I could have been taken to court for, say, eating Thai food with basil before I knew I was pregnant (on the grounds that basil is an abortifact and, well, I *could* have been pregnant), or doing yoga that night, or maybe just waiting 'til I was too old...that is a horrifying picture.
Yes, yes, I know this isn't exactly the same, and I repeat that I think these people are legally responsible for at least negligence. But I think the ramifications of some of the prosecutors' arguments are scarier still on a broader level.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-12 09:31 pm (UTC)This is first-degree murder.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-13 01:30 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-13 12:46 am (UTC)If 'yes', then you were in absolutely no way responsible for the miscarriage.
These people did not, so they are.
I sympathise with your intention, but your argument is completely wrong.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-13 01:31 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-13 05:34 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-13 01:51 am (UTC)[citation needed]
(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-13 01:58 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-13 02:05 am (UTC)Two things:
Date: 2011-09-13 03:13 am (UTC)Maybe it's just me, but laws that have been passed by well over two thirds of the states don't strike me as laws which "didn't pass or stand a chance of passing".
(Source)
(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-13 05:40 am (UTC)This lists multiple victims of this charge. One is the druggie you mention, one is a woman who attempted suicide after the useless ass she got pregnant by abandoned her, (Note no mention is made of prosecuting him for being a deadbeat)One of the women is accused of doing drugs, which she denies and they cannot prove the birth defects are not downs as she was told,
(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-13 02:06 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-13 03:26 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-13 05:42 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-13 07:22 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-09-13 03:25 am (UTC)