I grow weary of having to catch Hell from women I've not even been introduced to yet because male babboons can't make the transition from boys to men. I tried "apologizing for my gender" for a while, but I'm done with that steaming crapola.
When I was young (pre-21) I tried to behave in ways that would seperate me from the hounddogs. As I grew older, and more experienced/roadrashed, I decided I would be me for the meness and let people think what they were gonna think. Implimentation on the new format took a while, with much on-the-fly ripping out of social programming.
I still despise the babboons, and will call them out and/or offer to stand between them and a female who doesn't want the attention. I will not, however, exaust myself trying to enlighten someone who is just playing the game and won't acknowledge she's putting herself at risk. If something starts to look dangerous but I've been waved off from backing somebody up, I'll just call the authorities and let the folks who get paid to intervene do their jobs.
That make any more sense?
My previous post mayn't've been as clear as I'd like. Oopsie.
The problem of sexual harassment has nothing to do with maturity. This is not a "boys vs men" issue. In many cases, harassers are well-respected adult men, highly functional, and socially aware enough to know how to wheedle their way out of consequences. Painting them as just stunted little boys does a disservice to A) boys, plenty of whom behave better despite being immature in many ways, and B) the overall social paradigm that not just allows but often encourages men to harass women.
No one is asking you to apologize for your gender. (Or at least I certainly hope they aren't. Simply being male is neither a problem in general nor the cause of this problem specifically. If anyone has implicated otherwise, then I'm truly sorry that happened to you, and they are wrong.) If the situation bothers you, I'm glad, because one would hope it would, but apologizing for other people is largely meaningless. It doesn't fix anything except maybe some misplaced, unwarranted guilt on your part. If you want to be useful, start with not being That Guy and then move on to actively intervening in things you see (as you've said you do, yay!) and educating the men around you. Because it's educating men that needs to happen -- women get educated plenty about "risk" already despite that their behaviour actually makes very little difference in practical application.
That said, the bit there about "playing the game" and "putting herself at risk" sounds an awful lot like "what do you expect, she was asking for it" victim-blaming rhetoric, and also ignores the behavioural patterns that women are conditioned to follow pretty much since birth. I hope it was a misspeak.
Because it's educating men that needs to happen -- women get educated plenty about "risk" already despite that their behaviour actually makes very little difference in practical application.
He's been posting here since 2005 intelligently. I'm HAPPY to give him the benefit of the doubt, especially when he's posted elsewhere in this thread about having a bad brain/word day.
Yeah, it's a bit confusing, but theweaselking has spoken well of you. This is pretty much why I have looked at the two readings of that first paragraph, and figured you meant "you stopped being the kind of controlling superficially-self-abasing chivalric asshole that nearly got thrown out of my house at one point for not respecting the fact that it was my house, my hosting, and my food on my plate, and decided to be a quietly respectful human being".
(The other reading, if you wonder why people are giving you the side-eye is "you stopped specifically avoiding harassing 'females' and if people can't take the behaviour that you now call being just me for the meness, fuck 'em.")
With regards to your first comment--it's possibly good to be done with it, since "apologizing for your gender" doesn't actually mean anything. Doing something when you see people (like, the members of your gender, the ones you term as little boys) behaving in a way that indicates they are likely to treat others badly, or are treating others badly--that actually helps. Good on you.
Also WRT your first comment: the worst "boys" have done in recent memory is been loud, didactic, and insisted I run a race to the vending machine. The worst that "men" have done in recent memory is been blithely reflexive assholes who have made it clear I don't count as a person because tiiiits, and if I go out for a drink without a Designated Male Handler then I just need to accept I'm going to get shouted at and treated like garbage if I don't "play the game".
...as it suddenly dawns on me: you do take that into account when you warn "females", right? That they could already be enlightened as to risk, and understand that going to a public location or social event means accepting the fact that they might end up in dangerous situation (trust me: so not news) (no. really. so not news), and they would like to get through the time and possibly even hook up with someone using a pattern that they have learnt puts them at less risk, because they've been taught women who aren't accommodating and flirtatious and fun to be around are putting themselves at risk of being shouted at, blamed, abused, shamed, and possibly followed into the bathroom and stabbed.
I mean, I pretty much assume you do (again, see the person who's seen you around for ages by this point vouching for you). Mostly putting it out there because sometimes it's not clear to people, even well-meaning ones, and it`s hardly as if it`s only you and I and he who are going to read these comments, so possibly this is worth articulating.
Because after all, quietly coming into the conversation with someone who's new to a group and waiting for a moment when you can quietly say "hey, if he starts insisting on giving you a lift home, my friend Janice said she'll drive you" is way different from looming seriously at the "female" who is managing to have a good time out and saying "you shouldn't be acting this way, don't you know that's how you get raped." It's a spectrum, but you can tell which end would peg the speaker as a victim-blaming control freak, yes?
I was unfortunately already aware of this, having read SF author Ann Aguirre's post (http://www.annaguirre.com/archives/2013/06/02/this-week-in-sf/) about pretty much the same thing a few weeks ago.
I wrote an angry post about it here (http://ardys-the-ghoul.livejournal.com/77518.html).
I'm still pissed off about it. No one, female or otherwise, should be treated like this.
I gotta say, though, those guys are lucky it was Ms. Headley they were abusing and not me, as I'm not nearly as "nice" as she seems to be. If somebody tried to touch me without my consent, in any way other than a professional handshake, he'd be lucky to escape without bodily harm.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-30 12:35 am (UTC)-- A <3
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-30 04:32 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-30 04:35 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-30 05:09 am (UTC)I still despise the babboons, and will call them out and/or offer to stand between them and a female who doesn't want the attention. I will not, however, exaust myself trying to enlighten someone who is just playing the game and won't acknowledge she's putting herself at risk. If something starts to look dangerous but I've been waved off from backing somebody up, I'll just call the authorities and let the folks who get paid to intervene do their jobs.
That make any more sense?
My previous post mayn't've been as clear as I'd like. Oopsie.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-30 08:43 am (UTC)No one is asking you to apologize for your gender. (Or at least I certainly hope they aren't. Simply being male is neither a problem in general nor the cause of this problem specifically. If anyone has implicated otherwise, then I'm truly sorry that happened to you, and they are wrong.) If the situation bothers you, I'm glad, because one would hope it would, but apologizing for other people is largely meaningless. It doesn't fix anything except maybe some misplaced, unwarranted guilt on your part. If you want to be useful, start with not being That Guy and then move on to actively intervening in things you see (as you've said you do, yay!) and educating the men around you. Because it's educating men that needs to happen -- women get educated plenty about "risk" already despite that their behaviour actually makes very little difference in practical application.
That said, the bit there about "playing the game" and "putting herself at risk" sounds an awful lot like "what do you expect, she was asking for it" victim-blaming rhetoric, and also ignores the behavioural patterns that women are conditioned to follow pretty much since birth. I hope it was a misspeak.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-30 12:41 pm (UTC)This. Yes. Actually, this entire comment.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-30 01:40 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-30 08:34 pm (UTC)Also, my personal definition of "man" does not include perp/abuser/rapist.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-30 09:10 pm (UTC)ETA: Oh, wait. That was about the boys vs men thing, not a defensive "not all men are rapists" comeback, wasn't it?
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-30 10:37 pm (UTC)So yeah: I don't think that was defensive.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-30 11:04 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-30 12:30 pm (UTC)(The other reading, if you wonder why people are giving you the side-eye is "you stopped specifically avoiding harassing 'females' and if people can't take the behaviour that you now call being just me for the meness, fuck 'em.")
With regards to your first comment--it's possibly good to be done with it, since "apologizing for your gender" doesn't actually mean anything. Doing something when you see people (like, the members of your gender, the ones you term as little boys) behaving in a way that indicates they are likely to treat others badly, or are treating others badly--that actually helps. Good on you.
Also WRT your first comment: the worst "boys" have done in recent memory is been loud, didactic, and insisted I run a race to the vending machine. The worst that "men" have done in recent memory is been blithely reflexive assholes who have made it clear I don't count as a person because tiiiits, and if I go out for a drink without a Designated Male Handler then I just need to accept I'm going to get shouted at and treated like garbage if I don't "play the game".
...as it suddenly dawns on me: you do take that into account when you warn "females", right? That they could already be enlightened as to risk, and understand that going to a public location or social event means accepting the fact that they might end up in dangerous situation (trust me: so not news) (no. really. so not news), and they would like to get through the time and possibly even hook up with someone using a pattern that they have learnt puts them at less risk, because they've been taught women who aren't accommodating and flirtatious and fun to be around are putting themselves at risk of being shouted at, blamed, abused, shamed, and possibly followed into the bathroom and stabbed.
I mean, I pretty much assume you do (again, see the person who's seen you around for ages by this point vouching for you). Mostly putting it out there because sometimes it's not clear to people, even well-meaning ones, and it`s hardly as if it`s only you and I and he who are going to read these comments, so possibly this is worth articulating.
Because after all, quietly coming into the conversation with someone who's new to a group and waiting for a moment when you can quietly say "hey, if he starts insisting on giving you a lift home, my friend Janice said she'll drive you" is way different from looming seriously at the "female" who is managing to have a good time out and saying "you shouldn't be acting this way, don't you know that's how you get raped." It's a spectrum, but you can tell which end would peg the speaker as a victim-blaming control freak, yes?
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-30 03:32 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-30 08:37 pm (UTC)Having not been very successful at phrasing my intention the last day or to, I'm leery of adding more words and muddling things even more.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-30 08:52 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-30 09:42 pm (UTC)'s allright...
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-30 11:06 pm (UTC)Thx for your tolerance, all...
(no subject)
Date: 2013-07-01 01:45 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-07-01 05:58 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-07-01 02:39 pm (UTC)I wrote an angry post about it here (http://ardys-the-ghoul.livejournal.com/77518.html).
I'm still pissed off about it. No one, female or otherwise, should be treated like this.
I gotta say, though, those guys are lucky it was Ms. Headley they were abusing and not me, as I'm not nearly as "nice" as she seems to be. If somebody tried to touch me without my consent, in any way other than a professional handshake, he'd be lucky to escape without bodily harm.