(no subject)

[theweaselking]

High-schooler sues school board based on grounds of bias against male students: "The system is designed to the disadvantage of males," Anglin said. "From the elementary level, they establish a philosophy that if you sit down, follow orders, and listen to what they say, you'll do well and get good grades. Men naturally rebel against this."

That's right. He just said that since boys won't follow rules, a system that punishes breaking rules must naturally be biased against boys.

iocaste212 destroys the argument snarkily in a way that I would really have to quote in it's entirely to do it justice. I'll just link to her instead.

Comments

[cmseward.livejournal.com]

No wonder I got a purple parabola from the LJ spectral analyser thing, it turns out I must actually be a girl. Boy, is my girlfriend going to be surprised.

Or, possibly, I learned to resist the "natural" rebellion against the rules and grew up!

[jasontromm.livejournal.com]

Our schools have been feminized too much.

Boys are discouraged from writing about what they know. They want to write about cops and robbers, cowboys and indians. Things that involve guns. They want to read books about sports, but all of this is discouraged by the PC crowd who want to make boys be kinder and gentler

It's hard for boys to learn if they're not allowed to burn off excess energy at recess. Even there, the boys are told they have to act more like girls. No cops and robbers because that involves guns. No tag because it makes the person who's "it" feel bad. No dodge-ball because somebody could get hurt.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

G'day, and welcome to my little chunk of the web.

I noticed on your blog (http://www.trommetter.com/log/archives/2006/01/26/not-designed-for-boys/#more-3459) that you don't actually have a child in school at the moment. I'm curious where you get that boys are told they have to act more like girls, or not play tag. I remember being stopped from playing dodgeball a few times at school because the ball we were using was unsafe (they gave us a bigger, softer ball and told us to go at it) and I remember snowball fights being discouraged because of the risks of ice in the eyes, but nothing else was ever stopped.

I'm also curious how you proceed from "not allowed to play games about guns" to "unable to burn off energy", and how you feel that applies specifically to requirements that students behave while in the class.

(Also: The link in your profile to your definition of "Christian Libertarian" is broken. I'm curious - if you don't mind answering, how do you define the term?)

[jasontromm.livejournal.com]

I actually do have a child in school right now. My girl is in 4th grade.

What page has the broken link?

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

My mistake. I took your comment that you were worried about your son entering school to mean that you didn't have a child already in school.

And it's this link:
http://wiki.trommetter.org/Main/ChristianLibertarian

Linked from your Livejournal profile
http://jasontromm.livejournal.com/profile

[pope-guilty.livejournal.com]

I keep writing nasty things, but I can't quite encapsulate my disgust with you. Males do not inherently like cops, robbers, cowboys, indians, and the like. "Boys" like them because they are enculturated by people like you to like them- encouraged to like them and to enjoy the sorts of movements and ideas that make them appealing. The idea that being genetically male or female dictates your tastes is ludicrous.

[jasontromm.livejournal.com]

With that attitude, I hope you never have any sons, they'll all turn out to be wusses. There are inherent biological differences (boys have a lot of testosterone, girls don't) that do influence behavior. Might I recommend you read Bringing Up Boys (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect?tag=jasonsbooks%26link_code=xm2%26camp=2025%26creative=165953%26path=http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html%253fASIN=084235266X%2526tag=jasonsbooks%2526lcode=xm2%2526cID=2025%2526ccmID=165953%2526location=/o/ASIN/084235266X%25253FSubscriptionId=0EMV44A9A5YT1RVDGZ82).

[torrain.livejournal.com]

If the inherent biological differences influence behaviour, how can you guarantee that his sons will all be wusses?

If the environment people are brought up in influences behaviour, then why aren't boys successfully adapting to a school system that requires them to behave in a particular way?

[pope-guilty.livejournal.com]

The fact that you use the term "wusses" pretty much tells me everything I need to know. Also, way to link to James Dobson. If I wanted the advice of that right-wing child-abusing lunatic, I'd kill myself- for wanting such advice would be the sign that I was unfit to contribute to society.

Oh, and "boys have a lot of testosterone, girls don't" is ludicrous. Having a lot of testosterone does not make you a rules-breakin' tough guy. Being raised by parents who buy into bullshit gender roles and abuse their children? Yeah, that can't possibly backfire.

[anton-p-nym.livejournal.com]

Some say "wusses", others say "law abiding citizens who can hold a white-collar job without becoming unindicted co-conspirators".

-- Steve's wondering how the law and order types can reconcile their "boys will be boys" mantra into their world views. Laws are just rules that everybody's supposed to follow; rulebreaking can't be chic and disrespectful.

[torrain.livejournal.com]

And here we see the distinction between female/feminine, male/masculine, and sex/gender.

(I generally find a handy shorthand description to be "Menstruation is a common female trait. Pink ruffles are a Western feminine trait." Like most shorthands, it is not entirely accurate, but it does communicate enough of a base concept that I and whoever I'm discussing things with can hash it out from there.)

[torrain.livejournal.com]

> Our schools have been feminized too much.

Ah. Always intrested to hear how it works in other countries. *pays attention*

> Boys are discouraged from writing about what they know.

Like science, and history, and engineering, and art, and horror?

> They want to write about cops and robbers, cowboys and indians. Things
> that involve guns.

Ah, more personally entertaining stuff. Gotcha.

That's a shame. I never got discouraged from reading any of this kind of thing in school. Perhaps no-one realized that the true crime stuff was true, and assumed that (like all the other stuff I read) it was alright because all the violent death and mutilation and assault was fictional.

At the same time, I never got discouraged from writing anything I felt like writing, and I do think that if anyone was going to object to people writing about murder and crime and self-mutiliation,[1] they would have done so.

> They want to read books about sports, but all of this is discouraged by
> the PC crowd who want to make boys be kinder and gentler

Ahhhhh. I take it you're discussing an effort which is specifically targetted towards boys on a psychological level? I mean, I know the schools I went to demanded that you not destroy property, hurt people, or disrupt class, but I never really got the impression that they cared about whether you *believed* the rules as long as you obeyed them. Healthy preparation for self-sufficient life, and all that.

> It's hard for boys to learn if they're not allowed to burn off excess
> energy at recess.

Really? How odd. I won't say that girls manage, because I've never seen them not be allowed to burn off excess energy at recess. What do they do in the schools you're familiar with, insist people sit around in small groups reading or chatting politely?

> Even there, the boys are told they have to act more like girls. No cops
> and robbers because that involves guns. No tag because it makes the
> person who's "it" feel bad. No dodge-ball because somebody could get
> hurt.

...good god, are you seriously telling me that in your experience, girls *don't* play these games?

My pity to the school system you are familiar with, for its bizarre definition of what girls do, its wretched attempt to redefine the behaviour of half the human population as inherently delicate, non-threatening, physically inactive, and uninterested in conflict, and its attempts to force the entire human population to behave in that strange way.
---
[1] Requisite teenage angst, and all that. Pah.

[pope-guilty.livejournal.com]

As someone who attended a number of Christian and public elementary schools (my folks moved around a lot), he's lying.

>>>>>the schools I went to demanded that you not destroy property, hurt people, or disrupt class<<<<<

OMG SEXISM!!!eleven!

[desdenova.livejournal.com]

Speaking as a female-type person, I take serious umbrage at the characterization of the fucked-up American education system as "feminized." Also, it is reducing a complicated situation to a meaningless tag-word.

For example, the issue of recess. (For those not in the know, many school districts in the U.S., especially urban ones, have strongly curtailed or eliminated recess periods. Elementary-school kids of both genders are expected to sit in class all day long.) ALL kids benefit from the chance to run around and burn off energy at recess. Small children do not have the attention spans needed for all-day studying. Teachers realize this, and generally do not like such policies, but the decision is usually out of their hands. They can only implement (or if they're brave work around) policies set by school boards, which in turn are constrained by state and federal laws, and the fact that funding is limited. (Funding is always limited.)

Would you care to explain why you think that no-recess policies are part of a conspiracy to "feminize" society, or whatever, rather than a consequence of school boards trying to meet the (often arbitrary and unfunded) requirements of laws like No Child Left Behind? I see from your user info that you live in South Carolina, so I'd be surprised to learn that the issues in your district are due to an overabundance of namby-pamby liberals in your local government.

[rimrunner.livejournal.com]

Why are you more interested in the school's purported treatment of boys than in how it's educating your daughter? Sounds to me like they're teaching her to be passive and uncompetitive. That won't get her far in life.

[jasontromm.livejournal.com]

I'm not worried about my daughter, she's one of the smartest in her class and she's always been an individual. She'll only conform to a certain point.

[torrain.livejournal.com]

I liked this take on it as well.

[cloverkill.livejournal.com]

this concept that "boys are bred to break rules" has had some strange ways of popping up. like...why hasn't the male birth control pill been marketed/successul? because since (generally) men believe they are "rule breakers" and "rebellious" it would be too difficult to market something like the pill that requires daily responsibility. grrr.

[torrain.livejournal.com]

That's actually much nicer reasoning than the reasoning I generally hear. I like it.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

It's because women don't matter. Duh.

Colour me unsurprised

[anton-p-nym.livejournal.com]

I have to deal with that reasoning every day as a moderator. Me? I advocate putting a wood chipper in the schoolyard and having teachers dare those who act up to stick their hands in it. All this bleeding heart crap about how the school system punishes [insert gender of speaker's coddled brat] just drives me to antisocial ponderings.

-- Steve'll point out that kids can still run and play during recess, so "burning off energy" is a lame excuse for misbehaviour. Besides, crap like this was starting up even when dodgeball was allowed.

Re: Colour me unsurprised

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

Dodgeball isn't allowed?

That's just SAD, man.

Re: Colour me unsurprised

[jsbowden.livejournal.com]

Someone might get hurt. These days, second graders can't even point their fingers at each other and make shooting noises without getting expelled for life. I think the kid in the article is full of shit, but at the same time, that doesn't mean the schools aren't severely broken.

Re: Colour me unsurprised

[anton-p-nym.livejournal.com]

Three cheers for torts. Hip-hip-[receives restraining order and summons]

-- Steve's seen litigitious behaviour impede a lot of activities... even some which are worth impeding.

[silmaril.livejournal.com]

This comment in metaquotes made me giggle, too. enjoy.