Awesome article. I used to be a mopey, never-get-laid nice guy (lowercase), but then I started you know... COMMUNICATING with women. Now i have an awesome girlfriend (opaqueplanet), and a ton of awesome female friends (who I'm not trying to fuck :P).
Hey, let's blame other people for things we failed utterly to do! Obviously it's all their fault!
I was a "nice guy." I did all the nice things hoping they'd get me noticed, and failed utterly to be open and honest in my intentions. I put off asking because it "wasn't the right time," and watched the guys who asked when I didn't get the girl.
When I later grew the hell up, I realized that it was my failing to act that was the problem. The other person wasn't even a factor, and when I starting ACTING on stuff the whole situation changed.
So, yeah. Being accountable for your own mistakes might in fact make a difference. Bitching about how nobody appreciates your ulterior motives and sense of entitlement is utter idiocy.
Hear fucking hear. When I first read about Nice Guys, a lot of what was creeping me out about a few of my perpetually-single male friends suddenly clicked.
Ya. My favourite is still the one who insisted that he and a few friends were just going out to the movie, and I could come along, and it'd strictly be a friends thing, and then informed me afterwards that it had been a date and he hadn't told me because if he had I wouldn't've gone.
(I mean, "On what special planet of your little mindscape is "It's a date if *I* think so, even if I've promised her it's not" a valid social procedure, asshole?" But you know.)
Ooh, classy. Yeah, the one that got me the most (and who I have since just stopped talking to, since it wasn't worth my effort) was the guy who could in the same breath lament his lack of a girlfriend and how nice he was and then not-so-quietly point out why every woman who walked by (no matter where we were) was a whore. I wanted to point out to him if every woman was a slut or a whore, why was he talking to me and what did he expect to get out of it?
I've never heard a woman moan about there being no nice men out there (I deliberately avoid the term "nice guy" because it's really been heavily coloured by the Nice Guys).
That said, it may just be that I don't hang around with idiots of either sex :D If the only men you can find are assholes, you're obviously looking in the wrong places, or acting in such a way as to piss off every man you meet, one or the other.
"Or you could, you know, explain that your experience is different from jerril's. A radical approach."
And that is exactly what I did.
"Or stand by your statement that these people you've never met deserve no sympathy. Or claim that you've heard such a statement from someone that you don't "hang out" with, and just met in passing."
Yep. One could paraphrase the two options I described in so many ways without changing their meaning. And still in my opinion neither of both deserve compassion, which at least Nice Guys being discussed here in the comments apparently do not get.
"This is quite different from a complaint about there not being any."
The difference between these two phrases is only on a theoretical level. Or a matter of politeness, you know. In practice both mean that lady saying either of them can not find a nice guy for herself. And it does not mean that much whether because there is no any, or because all nice ones are taken. The problem is in this particular person, as in the case of the Nice Guys.
> "Or you could, you know, explain that your experience is different > from jerril's. A radical approach." > And that is exactly what I did.
Not really. Jerril said she'd never heard any woman moan about there being no nice men (in the sense of really nice guys, as opposed to Nice Guys (TM)), and hypothesized that it was because she didn't hang out with idiots.
You said that you'd heard one woman complain about how all the nice guys were taken. (And because she was complaining about it, they probably weren't Nice Guys.)
This isn't an experience which is different from Jerril's. In fact, given how your response to Jerril suggests resentment at not being able to contradict her,[1] it suggests that your experience is the *same* as Jerril's--that you haven't heard women moaning about how there are no nice guys, and that the closest you can come for an example is one person being unhappy that all the people she's interested in are taken.
> The difference between these two phrases is only on a theoretical > level. Or a matter of politeness, you know. In practice both mean > that lady saying either of them can not find a nice guy for > herself. And it does not mean that much whether because there is no > any, or because all nice ones are taken. The problem is in this > particular person, as in the case of the Nice Guys.
Wait, you mean you don't see a difference between someone saying "There are no nice guys *at all*, ka-sneef, woa is me" and "I know there are nice people, I wish I could date one of them, but all the ones I know of are currently in a relationship and not available"?
I mean, if the speaker is a purely selfish individual who doesn't give a damn about the people out there unless they're personally useful to her, then there's no difference. But if you're coming to the conversation with that assumption, you might want to characterize her as more than "a woman". --- [1] Not that you *can't* contradict her. But it really does come across as you feeling as if you can't, and you didn't.
I guess I need to work on my written English intonations. I was not resentful at not being able to contradict Jerill, because I totally agree with her. However, this very same fact (i.e., my agreement), given the two options in her post (either do not hear complaints or hang out with idiots), left me with less than a pleasant choice of replies if I strictly follow these two options. Thus I did not follow the options but described my experience, which is closer to "hanging out with idiots" side.
And this expirience is different from Jerill's (not exactly the opposite, but still different). And it may be because I am a guy and it would be rather offencive for a lady in discussion with me to say something like "there are no nice guys", so she may have chosen to put it as "all the good ones are already taken" out of politeness, as i mentioned. And you understand my explanation of difference between these two phrases, may be just narrow motives of that woman too much to a pure selfishness.
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(no subject)
Date: 2007-12-16 09:40 pm (UTC)I used to be a mopey, never-get-laid nice guy (lowercase), but then I started you know... COMMUNICATING with women.
Now i have an awesome girlfriend (
(no subject)
Date: 2007-12-16 10:32 pm (UTC)I was a "nice guy." I did all the nice things hoping they'd get me noticed, and failed utterly to be open and honest in my intentions. I put off asking because it "wasn't the right time," and watched the guys who asked when I didn't get the girl.
When I later grew the hell up, I realized that it was my failing to act that was the problem. The other person wasn't even a factor, and when I starting ACTING on stuff the whole situation changed.
So, yeah. Being accountable for your own mistakes might in fact make a difference. Bitching about how nobody appreciates your ulterior motives and sense of entitlement is utter idiocy.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-12-16 11:25 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-12-17 04:14 am (UTC)(I mean, "On what special planet of your little mindscape is "It's a date if *I* think so, even if I've promised her it's not" a valid social procedure, asshole?" But you know.)
(no subject)
Date: 2007-12-17 04:28 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-12-17 04:41 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-12-17 12:33 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-12-17 12:49 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-12-17 02:07 pm (UTC)That said, it may just be that I don't hang around with idiots of either sex :D If the only men you can find are assholes, you're obviously looking in the wrong places, or acting in such a way as to piss off every man you meet, one or the other.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-12-18 06:28 am (UTC)Let's put it this way: I've heard a woman saying that all the nice guys were "already taken".
(no subject)
Date: 2007-12-19 03:41 pm (UTC)> that I hang out with idiots.
Or you could, you know, explain that your experience is different from
Or stand by your statement that these people you've never met deserve no sympathy.
Or claim that you've heard such a statement from someone that you don't "hang out" with, and just met in passing.
> I've heard a woman saying that all the nice guys were "already
> taken".
This is quite different from a complaint about there not being any.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-12-20 02:09 pm (UTC)And that is exactly what I did.
"Or stand by your statement that these people you've never met deserve no sympathy.
Or claim that you've heard such a statement from someone that you don't "hang out" with, and just met in passing."
Yep. One could paraphrase the two options I described in so many ways without changing their meaning.
And still in my opinion neither of both deserve compassion, which at least Nice Guys being discussed here in the comments apparently do not get.
"This is quite different from a complaint about there not being any."
The difference between these two phrases is only on a theoretical level. Or a matter of politeness, you know. In practice both mean that lady saying either of them can not find a nice guy for herself. And it does not mean that much whether because there is no any, or because all nice ones are taken. The problem is in this particular person, as in the case of the Nice Guys.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-12-20 02:57 pm (UTC)> from jerril's. A radical approach."
> And that is exactly what I did.
Not really. Jerril said she'd never heard any woman moan about there being no nice men (in the sense of really nice guys, as opposed to Nice Guys (TM)), and hypothesized that it was because she didn't hang out with idiots.
You said that you'd heard one woman complain about how all the nice guys were taken. (And because she was complaining about it, they probably weren't Nice Guys.)
This isn't an experience which is different from Jerril's. In fact, given how your response to Jerril suggests resentment at not being able to contradict her,[1] it suggests that your experience is the *same* as Jerril's--that you haven't heard women moaning about how there are no nice guys, and that the closest you can come for an example is one person being unhappy that all the people she's interested in are taken.
> The difference between these two phrases is only on a theoretical
> level. Or a matter of politeness, you know. In practice both mean
> that lady saying either of them can not find a nice guy for
> herself. And it does not mean that much whether because there is no
> any, or because all nice ones are taken. The problem is in this
> particular person, as in the case of the Nice Guys.
Wait, you mean you don't see a difference between someone saying "There are no nice guys *at all*, ka-sneef, woa is me" and "I know there are nice people, I wish I could date one of them, but all the ones I know of are currently in a relationship and not available"?
I mean, if the speaker is a purely selfish individual who doesn't give a damn about the people out there unless they're personally useful to her, then there's no difference. But if you're coming to the conversation with that assumption, you might want to characterize her as more than "a woman".
---
[1] Not that you *can't* contradict her. But it really does come across as you feeling as if you can't, and you didn't.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-12-24 09:12 am (UTC)And this expirience is different from Jerill's (not exactly the opposite, but still different). And it may be because I am a guy and it would be rather offencive for a lady in discussion with me to say something like "there are no nice guys", so she may have chosen to put it as "all the good ones are already taken" out of politeness, as i mentioned. And you understand my explanation of difference between these two phrases, may be just narrow motives of that woman too much to a pure selfishness.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-12-17 04:40 pm (UTC)Like MightyGodKing, I also went "oh wow," there, because I really did not expect that sentence to be out in the open. Dear and Fluffy Lord.