(no subject)

[theweaselking]

Lesbians sue Greek homosexual rights organisations to stop them from using the term "Lesbian".

"he issue boils down to who has the right to call themselves Lesbians.

Is it gay women, or the 100,000 people living on Greece's third biggest island - plus another 250,000 expatriates who originate from Lesbos?

The man spearheading the case, publisher Dimitris Lambrou, claims that international dominance of the word in its sexual context violates the human rights of the islanders, and disgraces them around the world. "
=========================
Of course, the *correct* response here is that, while there is confusion, there is no disgrace. In order for there to be disgrace, "Lesbian" would have to be a pejorative or negative term.

Comments

[anivair.livejournal.com]

Quite right. Also, why can the word not mean two things? You can't go ten feet in this country without hitting a place that means something funny or weird in another language.

[anivair.livejournal.com]

Though I'd be amused if they started calling themselves "lesbites"

[unnamed525.livejournal.com]

"Sapphics".

[itlandm.livejournal.com]

If "homosexual" wasn't a negative term, the homosexuals would not have stolen the word Lesbian in the first place.

This isn't a case of the island happening to have that name. The homosexual activists picked that name for historical reasons, in order to improve their image by invoking the classical era. It is certainly not the islanders naming their island to invoke an aura of homosexuality.

Whether it OUGHT to be a negative term is entirely separate from what it is. There is nothing morally wrong with coprophagia, but there would definitely be protests if coprophages all over the world started to refer to themselves as "ohioan".

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

If "homosexual" wasn't a negative term, the homosexuals would not have stolen the word Lesbian in the first place.

I find it interesting, and very telling, that you consider the terms synonymous.

The homosexual activists picked that name for historical reasons, in order to improve their image by invoking the classical era.

While it's always fun to watch you froth about your irrational prejudices, the term "Lesbian" dates back almost three hundred years, and "Lesbianism" was a sociological term, entering dictionaries about a hundred and fifty years ago, chosen for much the same reason that a great many descriptive terms use Greek and Latin: Because it's usefully precise to give a single specific word describing a single specific behavior, and it's traditional to pull from archaic languages to get your word.

And I suspect you're deeply wrong about the coprophiliacs, there - take a look at the proliference of "santorum" in sexual slang, of "creationist" as synonym for "illiterate", and of "Christian" as a shorthand for "bigot".

[harald387.livejournal.com]

I suspect "santorum" met with as little protest as it did thanks to Santorum's decision to ignore the problem in the hopes it would go away, rather than deigning to acknowledge what was, ultimately, a prank that went too far.

Not that Santorum didn't deserve being pranked, but I think the lack of protest was deliberate, and not representative of other, possibly broader cases.

Also, "proliference"?

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

How on earth did "spreading santorum" go too far?

Proliferance. Like proliferation, but more of a past tense kind of feel to it.

I language very well!

[harald387.livejournal.com]

How on earth did "spreading santorum" go too far?

I'm sure that from Santorum's point of view, it did.

[itlandm.livejournal.com]

I have no problem with believing that sociologists in a more modest era would coin the word "lesbian". It would reduce embarrassment for all involved. But the widespread use today is hardly a matter of the public striving for scientific clarity. Rather it is an example of euphemism treadmill. "Lesbian" has taken on the same meaning as "homosexual woman".

And... your ad hominem attacks are kind of backfiring here. Just wanted to mention it, since you don't know me all that well.

[matgb]

"Lesbian" has taken on the same meaning as "homosexual woman".

Well, yes. Same as it did in the 1870 OED, which had researched much earlier precedence. In fact, in English at least, the term had exactly the same meaning in the early eighteenth century as in the late twentieth. In Western cultures, women-loving-women have been called ‘lesbians’ and sometimes ‘Sapphists’ for hundreds of years.

It's more widespread use today is linked to more widespread awareness/acceptance, not because it's a more recent usage.

[torrain.livejournal.com]

> The homosexual activists picked that name for historical reasons,
> in order to improve their image by invoking the classical era.

The word is about three hundred years old; the word with its connotations of sexual orientation appears in the almighty OED by 1870.

I would dearly love some reference here which supports your contention that the use of the word "lesbianism" to the point where it was accepted by the OED was due to a concerted effort on the part of mid-eighteen-hundreds homosexual activists trying to make "teh girl-sex" seem classier.

While you are at it, please also address why these homosexual activists seeking to evoke the classical era were not satisfied by the adjective "Sapphic", which had appeared in print in English a hundred years earlier (~1770). Was that a different group of homosexual activists? Or were there two, who were just squabbling over the best etymological basis?

I await your references.

[itlandm.livejournal.com]

I may be wrong, unlikely as this seems to me. It may be that the usage of the word has been markedly different in English, which I have only directly observed since the 1990es. In Norwegian, the word "lesbian" has definitely spread rapidly during my adult years, and the usage was spearheaded by the organization for lesbian and gay liberation, a pretty classic activist-driven organization as should be obvious merely from the name. Actually the Norwegian name is "lesbisk og homofil frigjøring", lesbian and homophile liberation. Before this, both men and women were called homophile. This was not good enough for the lesbians, so the name was changed. In my youth they were called homosexual, but this word fell into disuse because it sounded as if it were about sex rather than love. (It was not - but I don't need to explain that to linguists like you.) So we had a clear case of euphemism treadmill where in my lifetime the same people went from homosexual to homophile and now lesbian, largely at the behest of the queer community and their liberal intellectual allies.

Given that Norway has had the same development in social mores as Britain, the US and presumably also Greece, I assumed that the linguistic development was also the same. Assumptions are always a risky business but have the benefit of being much faster than research. (Besides, the voice in my head would normally warn me if I was wrong.)

If the word "lesbian" has been commonly used in English for generations, it is obviously meaningless to seek to replace it. In particular, the organizations representing lesbians would have no power to do anything about it, nor any responsibility for the usage.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

So absically we're looking at less an activist push to change and appropriate labels as we are internationalisation of language that happens anywhere.

[itlandm.livejournal.com]

Well, in this case it is a selective internationalization. We have a Norwegian word for queer, for instance. "Skeiv" (which means "slanted" or "not straight") is used in much the same was as queer. Curiously, this too is a fairly new word in this context. So we do seem to have a mild case of euphemism treadmill here. It is surprising that an officially liberal country like Norway has this, and not the supposedly more conservative USA. I shall have to accept the evidence however: It seems that English has had the same word, lesbian, for women who love women, for at least a couple centuries. This speaks rather highly of English culture, I think.

[publius1.livejournal.com]

The homosexual activists picked that name for historical reasons, in order to improve their image by invoking the classical era.

wut

You know, Magnus, I used to think of you as a liberal, for some reason...

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

Magnus has always been deeply-irrational reality-proof hard-right whenever the "moral values" of his intellectually bankrupt version of Christianity come in.

[itlandm.livejournal.com]

Rather it is your irrational hate of all religion that makes you read weird things into what I write.

This particular debate is an example of that. Since I am a Christian, you assume that I'm somehow anti-gay. That is pretty ridiculous when a disproportionate number of my friends are gay, lesbian or bisexual. The world is anti-gay. As far as I know there is no place in the world where people just don't care whether you are gay or straight. Not even Norway. Despite all legislation of equality, people on the street still feel that homosexuality is icky, it makes them queasy, and the gays should just stay home. That's not what I tell people, it's what people tell me.

You claimed in your original post that Lesbian is not a negative term. That's the crazy talking. That's living in a liberal fantasy world. In the real world, any deviation from the norm is perceived as negative, and for simple reproductive reasons, heterosexuality will remain the norm.

You think that belittling me will change that? That's your crazy talking. This is how almost all people outside my intellectually bankrupt version of Christianity think: If they shoot down the messenger, they can continue to live in their fantasy world. Good luck with that.

[torrain.livejournal.com]

Er, dude?

You've been going on about how assumptions are faster than research and it's usually okay because the voice in your head would tell you if you are wrong.

Not to mention you've been claiming that the various terms for homosexuality are turning into pejoratives over time--that's what the euphemism treadmill is--which is frankly rather suggestive of disparaging views towards the orientation.

I know how theweaselking reacts to religion, but you might want to, as they say, Own Your Shit.

[itlandm.livejournal.com]

OK, we're getting there. The disparaging view toward the orientation is very real. It is just not mine. Did I somehow fail to make it clear in my original reply that it was descriptive, not prescriptive? The whole linguist part, while a valuable learning experience for me, was tangential.

The use of reasonable assumption over research in everyday life is not unique to me, I am simply unusual in admitting it. If people did not rely of assumptions, they would not think that I was some kind of crusader against same-sex relationships. Since I am a Christian, it is a reasonable assumption.

[torrain.livejournal.com]

> Did I somehow fail to make it clear in my original reply that it
> was descriptive, not prescriptive?

When your first sentence is

If "homosexual" wasn't a negative term, the homosexuals would not have stolen the word Lesbian in the first place.

then yes, you did fail. The lumping of people with a particular sexual orientation into a single unified group and the use of the charged term "steal" connote seeing homosexuals as a single group that you are willing to make unflattering generalizations about.

Furthermore,

This isn't a case of the island happening to have that name. The homosexual activists picked that name for historical reasons, in order to improve their image by invoking the classical era. It is certainly not the islanders naming their island to invoke an aura of homosexuality.

this paragraph suggests an either/or dichotomy which futher connotes the close-mindedness associated with prejudice. And you're still lumping homosexuals into a group, and you're clearly not bothering to check what you're saying before you're saying it. This may be understandable in a face-to-face conversation, or one in which you aren't making generalizations about a huge proportion of the earth's population, but you are on the internet, and making friends with a Google for 'lesbian etymology' takes thirty seconds.

Finally,

Whether it OUGHT to be a negative term is entirely separate from what it is. There is nothing morally wrong with coprophagia, but there would definitely be protests if coprophages all over the world started to refer to themselves as "ohioan".

that paragraph? That reads like an abdication of responsibility, a complete "Oh it's not *me* being mean to homosexuals, it's *society*. I'm just acknowledging this. I mean, I'm a person who can choose to act the way they want to, but I have this handy reason to not do anything difficult, and incidentally continue making absolutely no effort to change things or act like people who aren't straight should ever expect or have a right to not be treated badly. Then it follows up with line that reinforces your completely inaccurate either/or statement about homosexuals "stealing" a term for shallow "classical is classy" reasons, and implies that there's no longuistic or historical basis for the term.

So yeah. You pretty much came across as prejudiced and intellectually lazy, even before you tagged the "I'm not Xist, I have friends who are Y" square on the bingo card.

And I, for one, was not aware that you were Christian. So you can't attribute the reading of it to that.

[torrain.livejournal.com]

> In the real world, any deviation from the norm is perceived as
> negative,

Yes, I'd noticed how often unusaully beautiful or intelligent or charming people get looked down on.

[itlandm.livejournal.com]

I don't think I really fit into any American political category.

Incidentally, there seems to be evidence that I was wrong about the origin of the world "lesbian" to describe women who love women. I based my assumption on the Norwegian umbrella organization for queers promoting the use of "lesbian" over the short and gender-neutral "homo" which is the colloquial term for both gays and lesbians here.

It was also, in retrospect, an unneccessary statement that detracted from what I was really trying to say.

[publius1.livejournal.com]

I think it is partially this: you have a preternaturally good grasp of the English language. You use idioms correctly, you don't misuse tenses, your subject-verb agreement is dead on. It's HARD to remember that English is not your native tongue.

However, it is. And you used several "buzzwords" that in the American culture are extremely "packed" with information. "Homosexual activists" is a term used by the far right in America to imply a sort of sinister cabal with an agenda, and to say "was stolen by the homosexual activists" is to imply a whitewashing, at least in American sodomyspakk. There are no Gay Elders. There are no quotas for recruitment. That's the imagery you brought up in MY mind when you said that.

Second, you picked something to compare homosexuality to -- coprophagia -- which most homosexuals, including myself, would pretty much frown upon being compared to. Homosexuality isn't a fetish (excepting college students, anyway), it's a trait. It's like when Trent Lott, a famous American politician, compared being gay to alcoholism or kleptomania. Additionally, you essentially compared being gay to fucking around with shit. It's one step from calling us "fudge packers".

Third -- and this admittedly has nothing to do with your grasp of the English language -- when you were called on the entire POINT of your missive, which was that "lesbian" is a modern term and the people on Lesbos have some sincere gripe, you refused to back down, but merely sidled away.


Admittedly, being gay, I'm more sensitive to such matters, but I don't think it would take someone overly sensitive to see what you were saying as particularly socially conservative, at least in Western standards.

[itlandm.livejournal.com]

Yes. I handled that one wrong from the start. I still honestly think it is incredibly callous to say that people should just not care whether their ethnicity is mistaken for their sexuality. But I could have said that without letting my anger influence me.

[silmaril.livejournal.com]

I am entirely, entirely unimpressed.

You know where I come from.

The only thing I can say is "too bad, so sad, deal." Lesbian is not a pejorative term. But a bird is a bird.

[gothpanda.livejournal.com]

I had the word "lesbian" used as an insult towards me once. I wasn't particularly offended, I laughed, but the use of the word with the intent being to mock or insult me makes it a pejorative. Much like the word homosexual, which isn't really an insult...unless you use it as such.

[silmaril.livejournal.com]

Oh, there are all kinds of people who consider it an insult. Probably this sueing person also does.

I don't, and by treating it such I long for a world where it isn't.

[gothpanda.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Hell, I wish I was a lesbian, life without men would be so much easier in so many ways! :P

[chaosrah.livejournal.com]

THANK YOU! Jeeeez

[marlo.livejournal.com]

Not to mention they're somewhat late to the argument, seeing as lesbian has been in common English usage for I don't know how long.

[elffin.livejournal.com]

"Gr, argh, how dare that woman who wrote poetry be born on our island, gr, argh, I can sue to make 6 billion+ people ignore hundreds if not thousands of years of literary allusion and usage. Gr. Argh. It violates our human rights for you to have a classical education. Dig up Lord Byron, he must stand for his crimes."

And the US is a nation founded on Christian Ideals, too, and I have a bridge in Arizona to sell you.

wherin I play devils advocate and push the bisexual agenda

[opaqueplanet.livejournal.com]

Since the poet Sappho was the reason the word Lesbian came to be applied to gay women, and Sappho was from most accounts bisexual rather than "kinsey 6.0", I propose the term Lesbian be used to refer to either bisexual women, or ALL women-who-love-women (ie. bisexual and gay).

And the Isle of Lesbos should probably just roll with it, make it a tourism thing (it already is), and play up the whole Sappho thing.

Re: wherin I play devil's advocate and push the bisexual agenda

[opaqueplanet.livejournal.com]

pretend that apostrophe was in my subject line all along

[lafinjack.livejournal.com]

http://www.sapphicchic.com/xwhy.html

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Exactly, the only reason why the inhabitants of Lesbos can object so strenuously and put so much effort into fighting against the use of the word Lesbian by homosexual women (and a court case is not going to change this) is because they think being a Lesbian is a horrendously bad thing - which speaks volumes for the people bringing the case. ESPECIALLY if they're going to use language like "disgraces them around the world"

[hoyvenmayven.livejournal.com]

You know, when I was a kid I remember a Trivial Pursuit question: "What are the inhabitants of the island of Lesbos called?"

Obviously a question meant to generate all sorts of mature snickering. But when you turned the card over, the answer was:

"Lesbosians."

So, I guess Trivial Pursuit was fucking with us, but hey - problem solved! "Lesbosians!" Works for me.