Yup. In private homes - as domestic staff, on farms - as grunt labor, in cities - as sexual slavery. In NOLA - imprisoned by the construction industry. Not exactly new, sadly.
Thank goodness there have been people who felt the need to speak out against various injustices as you sound like the sort of person who'd be perfectly happy if America still had Jim Crow laws or even antebellum slavery.
...which tells me that theweaselking's consciousness-raising is a worthwhile activity. If we're revolted by what we see, and we become aware of how we're complicit in it, maybe, just maybe, we might begin to change our choices to actually do something about it.
I think you're embracing the idea of a zero-sum game. I don't think equating "living well" to "decadence" is a fair thing either.
Look, think of the expression of concern and revulsion as an indication of a hope and an attempt to bring the world into line with what one believes would be a better state.
(You know, kind of like your statement that maybe throwing bricks at prostitutes would teach them that there were other life choices. Except that worrying about slavery doesn't involve tacit approval of leaving children bleeding in the streets.)
> At some point, I just stop caring about the slaves.
Yeah, getting used to something naturally leads to not caring about it.
You're homogenizing the culture and the behaviour of those in it, again, as well as dismissing things of value which are not gained through competing with others. I realize you are prone to doing this, and that you like the anecdotes (not data) you have which you use to support this view, but it really does undermine your being taken seriously.
(As well, the high-handed dismissal telling _jeremiad to join the Amish suggests an incredibly simplistic worldview, and expounding on how you feel while telling theweaselking that it doesn't matter how he feels is just a touch egocentric, and the betting that he hasn't looked into how his computer is made comes across as a cheap attempt to undermine. And it rings particularly false in light of your own stated views, which don't seem to have *any* trouble marrying callous indifference and an opinion about the correct way to run things.
(See, I buy boots made in North America when I can, and buy them from a store which makes a serious effort to engage in fair trade practices when not. You would not believe how much this effort cuts into my incredibly busy life. Why, I have half an hour less to spend on LiveJournal once every year or two.)
Yeah. You just continue taking it as axiomatic that people will be exploited. Or that the nuclear family is a necessary institution. Or that drugs (hey, wanna beer?) and prostitution erode a community, rather than being symptomatic of its existing weakness. Or that gender is some bizarre thing that both needs to be taught and is inborn, so that a girl won't learn to be a woman if she's raised by men, but she won't be a man if she's raised by men either.
It makes it real clear where you're coming from.
Conflating the society with the individual is the same error suggesting that you're desperate to see things in black and white again--same as the one where you say that all people are competing with each other to have a good life.
Augh. I'm starting to be reminded of the time when you tried to cast my pointing out that prositution was not itself a crime and perhaps peole should look at prosecuting those who are actually harming others as "so by the letter of the law, people who smoke at work should smoke crack."
Dude, if you're going to have an informed and rational discussion, then get informed and respond to what people say.
It is axiomatic that people will be exploited. ...
I do not think that word means what you think it means. Context suggests that "inevitable" would have conveyed your meaning better. Declaring that you consider something "axiomatic" doesn't get it automatically accepted in the discussion, so you might as well settle for clarity.
But, much more importantly, I think you're advocating despair, and I think that's contributing to the problem. Phrases like the above, "None of us really have a choice in the matter," and "It's irrelevant whether I care," convey a hopelessness that I find profoundly disturbing and sad. I can't change you, nor do I claim the right to try, but I do intend to try to counteract your spreading this personally and socially destructive philosophy around.
Yes, exactly. To me, these things (caring, hope, faith) are shallow if they are just feelings. The feelings we associate with them can impel us to action if we so choose, but otherwise, they remain unfulfilled. Furthermore, the heights of these aspects of love are not reached until one lives them without even the benefit of the feeling.
Why do feelings impel us to action? Because of cognitive dissonance: what we think our values are (or what we want them to be) and what we do differ, and the internal conflict this sets up applies pressure for change. I would much prefer that we change our lives to live up to our ideals than lower our ideals to the standard of our lives.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-13 02:02 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-13 02:19 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-13 03:13 pm (UTC)(Still haven't grabbed those books you recommended. Been busy.)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-13 04:44 pm (UTC)Thank goodness there have been people who felt the need to speak out against various injustices as you sound like the sort of person who'd be perfectly happy if America still had Jim Crow laws or even antebellum slavery.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-13 05:13 pm (UTC)"So go be socially abnormal!"
...yeah. Did you miss the concern for ethically correct behaviour in there?
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-13 02:28 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-13 03:12 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-13 07:42 pm (UTC)We should really get together sometime... what's your schedule like?
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-13 03:05 pm (UTC)Look, think of the expression of concern and revulsion as an indication of a hope and an attempt to bring the world into line with what one believes would be a better state.
(You know, kind of like your statement that maybe throwing bricks at prostitutes would teach them that there were other life choices. Except that worrying about slavery doesn't involve tacit approval of leaving children bleeding in the streets.)
> At some point, I just stop caring about the slaves.
Yeah, getting used to something naturally leads to not caring about it.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-13 05:12 pm (UTC)(As well, the high-handed dismissal telling
(See, I buy boots made in North America when I can, and buy them from a store which makes a serious effort to engage in fair trade practices when not. You would not believe how much this effort cuts into my incredibly busy life. Why, I have half an hour less to spend on LiveJournal once every year or two.)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-13 07:34 pm (UTC)It makes it real clear where you're coming from.
Conflating the society with the individual is the same error suggesting that you're desperate to see things in black and white again--same as the one where you say that all people are competing with each other to have a good life.
Augh. I'm starting to be reminded of the time when you tried to cast my pointing out that prositution was not itself a crime and perhaps peole should look at prosecuting those who are actually harming others as "so by the letter of the law, people who smoke at work should smoke crack."
Dude, if you're going to have an informed and rational discussion, then get informed and respond to what people say.
As to who said you didn't care? You did.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-14 01:34 am (UTC)I do not think that word means what you think it means. Context suggests that "inevitable" would have conveyed your meaning better. Declaring that you consider something "axiomatic" doesn't get it automatically accepted in the discussion, so you might as well settle for clarity.
But, much more importantly, I think you're advocating despair, and I think that's contributing to the problem. Phrases like the above, "None of us really have a choice in the matter," and "It's irrelevant whether I care," convey a hopelessness that I find profoundly disturbing and sad. I can't change you, nor do I claim the right to try, but I do intend to try to counteract your spreading this personally and socially destructive philosophy around.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-14 03:45 pm (UTC)Yes, exactly. To me, these things (caring, hope, faith) are shallow if they are just feelings. The feelings we associate with them can impel us to action if we so choose, but otherwise, they remain unfulfilled. Furthermore, the heights of these aspects of love are not reached until one lives them without even the benefit of the feeling.
Why do feelings impel us to action? Because of cognitive dissonance: what we think our values are (or what we want them to be) and what we do differ, and the internal conflict this sets up applies pressure for change. I would much prefer that we change our lives to live up to our ideals than lower our ideals to the standard of our lives.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-13 04:18 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-13 04:46 pm (UTC)The very idea of him having children and spreading that kind of poison nauseates me.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-13 04:23 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-16 07:12 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-13 05:26 pm (UTC)America: Land of the *ahermerm*, home of the brave-but-"not willing to really do anything about"-injustices.