Yeah. You just continue taking it as axiomatic that people will be exploited. Or that the nuclear family is a necessary institution. Or that drugs (hey, wanna beer?) and prostitution erode a community, rather than being symptomatic of its existing weakness. Or that gender is some bizarre thing that both needs to be taught and is inborn, so that a girl won't learn to be a woman if she's raised by men, but she won't be a man if she's raised by men either.
It makes it real clear where you're coming from.
Conflating the society with the individual is the same error suggesting that you're desperate to see things in black and white again--same as the one where you say that all people are competing with each other to have a good life.
Augh. I'm starting to be reminded of the time when you tried to cast my pointing out that prositution was not itself a crime and perhaps peole should look at prosecuting those who are actually harming others as "so by the letter of the law, people who smoke at work should smoke crack."
Dude, if you're going to have an informed and rational discussion, then get informed and respond to what people say.
It is axiomatic that people will be exploited. ...
I do not think that word means what you think it means. Context suggests that "inevitable" would have conveyed your meaning better. Declaring that you consider something "axiomatic" doesn't get it automatically accepted in the discussion, so you might as well settle for clarity.
But, much more importantly, I think you're advocating despair, and I think that's contributing to the problem. Phrases like the above, "None of us really have a choice in the matter," and "It's irrelevant whether I care," convey a hopelessness that I find profoundly disturbing and sad. I can't change you, nor do I claim the right to try, but I do intend to try to counteract your spreading this personally and socially destructive philosophy around.
Yes, exactly. To me, these things (caring, hope, faith) are shallow if they are just feelings. The feelings we associate with them can impel us to action if we so choose, but otherwise, they remain unfulfilled. Furthermore, the heights of these aspects of love are not reached until one lives them without even the benefit of the feeling.
Why do feelings impel us to action? Because of cognitive dissonance: what we think our values are (or what we want them to be) and what we do differ, and the internal conflict this sets up applies pressure for change. I would much prefer that we change our lives to live up to our ideals than lower our ideals to the standard of our lives.
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(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-13 07:34 pm (UTC)It makes it real clear where you're coming from.
Conflating the society with the individual is the same error suggesting that you're desperate to see things in black and white again--same as the one where you say that all people are competing with each other to have a good life.
Augh. I'm starting to be reminded of the time when you tried to cast my pointing out that prositution was not itself a crime and perhaps peole should look at prosecuting those who are actually harming others as "so by the letter of the law, people who smoke at work should smoke crack."
Dude, if you're going to have an informed and rational discussion, then get informed and respond to what people say.
As to who said you didn't care? You did.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-14 01:34 am (UTC)I do not think that word means what you think it means. Context suggests that "inevitable" would have conveyed your meaning better. Declaring that you consider something "axiomatic" doesn't get it automatically accepted in the discussion, so you might as well settle for clarity.
But, much more importantly, I think you're advocating despair, and I think that's contributing to the problem. Phrases like the above, "None of us really have a choice in the matter," and "It's irrelevant whether I care," convey a hopelessness that I find profoundly disturbing and sad. I can't change you, nor do I claim the right to try, but I do intend to try to counteract your spreading this personally and socially destructive philosophy around.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-14 03:45 pm (UTC)Yes, exactly. To me, these things (caring, hope, faith) are shallow if they are just feelings. The feelings we associate with them can impel us to action if we so choose, but otherwise, they remain unfulfilled. Furthermore, the heights of these aspects of love are not reached until one lives them without even the benefit of the feeling.
Why do feelings impel us to action? Because of cognitive dissonance: what we think our values are (or what we want them to be) and what we do differ, and the internal conflict this sets up applies pressure for change. I would much prefer that we change our lives to live up to our ideals than lower our ideals to the standard of our lives.